An Independent Scotland?

[Muban]

I think that anyone who starts such a thread with nothing but insulting stereotypes isn't really interested in a genuine debate.

Indeed. He lit the touchpaper and ran, who'd have thought it!

Scotland wants it's independance so I say let them have it.

I see no evidence of this. The majority of people I know don't want independence, they wanted devolved government for certain key areas which we have. The SNP had a landslide victory, but people were able to vote for them safe in the knowledge that there would be a referendum on independence. I certainly don't want it, I am proud of my Scottish heritage (as I would hope the Welsh and English are also proud of theirs) but identify myself as British.

Unfortunately it appears that it is often the bigots who shout the loudest and have their opinions heard over those of the general population in conversations like these.

 

[Biohazard]

There isn't one positive portrayal of the English in the entire film - they're presented as pederasts, rapists, cowards, fey homosexuals or evil tyrants. But then again Rob Roy is no better as was the trend at the time.

Whereas the Scots are portrayed a carefree bunch of mulleted sons of the Earth, peacefully going about their business. Never dreaming of hurting a soul unless provoked.

So the "hammer of the Scots" wasn't an tyrant then?

I don't think the film was out to portray England positively, but that in itself isn't racist. The same with Rob Roy it isn't an from an English perspective.

The film is about the Scottish wars of independence, which was a result of English invasion from a "Scottish perception". I see the points you make but it's hard to put the perspective you would like on the events.

The "ius primae noctis" claims would be the main thing that was seriously out of shape and totally innaccurate in this scope. I'm not sure if that makes it wholy racist or not but I'll leave that judgement to you.

Anyway just take the screenwriter's surname - Wallace - the entire thing was a petty, self-serving fanatasy that Gibson turned into a Disney-fied bunch of crap.

And I'm sure there are many racist WW2 movies - Dambusters for a start for the name of the dog alone, but 2 of my favourite WW2 movies are Das Boot and All Quiet on the Western Front - an entirely German perspective.


.

The film was pretty god damn gash to be honest. Dambusters is not racist for the name of the dog, that is applying our modern day principles and moral convictions and understanding retrospectively and I'm not sure that is always appropriate.

 

[Moza]

Contrary to most Scot's posts in this thread, I do seem to see a lot of interest in independence here in Aberdeen. Maybe because of Salmand's constituency.

I'm sure Aberdeen and Edinburgh would do very well out of it, but what about the rest of the country?

Still sitting on the fence personally.

 

[McPhee]

I guess the support in Aberdeen has a lot to do with the fact that it's where the majority of UK oil is landed, and one of the few areas of the UK that actually understands the scale of our oil industry (as opposed to those further south, who seem to think that our economy magically functions off the back of a broken, crippled financial sector).

I saw an article in The Guardian the other day that said the majority of Scots are opposed to independence when asked whether they want to be a fully independent nation or not. However, when they changed the question to one of independence, maximum devolution or the status quo, max devolution had quite a large lead, pulling significant numbers from both of the other options. I can't remember who ran the polls, but it's interesting to see that despite all of this talk of independence or no independence, there's a third option that currently has the most support.

And I'm sure there are many racist WW2 movies - Dambusters for a start for the name of the dog alone

Oh, the horror! Imagine naming a black dog Niger (the Latin word for the colour 'black'). How incredibly racist.

The name isn't racist, it just reveals the racist subconscious of the idiots who see a dog called Niger and assume it's some anti-black sentiment or some crude joke about the role of black people in society. Grow up.

 

[Biohazard]

I guess the support in Aberdeen has a lot to do with the fact that it's where the majority of UK oil is landed, and one of the few areas of the UK that actually understands the scale of our oil industry (as opposed to those further south, who seem to think that our economy magically functions off the back of a broken, crippled financial sector).

I saw an article in The Guardian the other day that said the majority of Scots are opposed to independence when asked whether they want to be a fully independent nation or not. However, when they changed the question to one of independence, maximum devolution or the status quo, max devolution had quite a large lead, pulling significant numbers from both of the other options. I can't remember who ran the polls, but it's interesting to see that despite all of this talk of independence or no independence, there's a third option that currently has the most support.

"The number of people saying they would vote Yes in a referendum has increased six points to 37 per cent since a similar poll 18 months ago. Those planning to vote No fell by one point to 45 per cent and the number who were undecided fell by five points to 18 per cent.

The findings come as First Minister Alex Salmond held talks with Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg in Edinburgh today. Scottish Secretary Michael Moore has said the UK Government is "not convinced" about the case for more powers.

The TNS-BMRB poll showed strongest support for independence in the younger age groups. Under-24s were in favour by 51 per cent to 36; those aged 25-34 backed it by 40 to 36; and 35-44 age group by 38 to 36. Over-65s opposed independence by 57 per cent to 28."

It's the old generation who are currently tilting the scales through their numbers. It's always been a generational thing. That is where the work needs to be done but it can be done support has been as high as 50/50 before.

It would be perverse if the hands of the younger generations were tied because of what the aged population wanted but that's democracy for you.

 

[FoxEye]

May as well give Cornwall independence while your at it

May as well. We have *nothing* in common with London, or much of the rest of England for that matter.

London/Manchester/etc are completely different worlds compared to down here.

 

[semi-pro waster]

Contrary to most Scot's posts in this thread, I do seem to see a lot of interest in independence here in Aberdeen. Maybe because of Salmand's constituency.

I'm sure Aberdeen and Edinburgh would do very well out of it, but what about the rest of the country?

Still sitting on the fence personally.

I didn't see a huge amount of interest in independence when I was in either Dundee or Edinburgh but maybe that says more about my group of friends than being a reliable metric for anything.

I'm sure Scotland could cope and may well prosper after what would almost certainly be a difficult few years initially but for the moment I'm not convinced it is worthwhile for Scotland to pursue. Really though I'd like it to be put to a sensible and well-worded referendum to settle the issue one way or the other as once that's done we can move on, whichever option is chosen is ultimately fine with me but the indecision isn't very good for anyone.

It's the old generation who are currently tilting the scales through their numbers. It's always been a generational thing. That is where the work needs to be done but it can be done support has been as high as 50/50 before.

It would be perverse if the hands of the younger generations were tied because of what the aged population wanted but that's democracy for you.

The older generation still have to count though as they also live there, unless the argument can be made that it's selfishness from them voting for retaining the Union as they're affecting their childrens future. The obvious argument that would be made there is that older, wiser heads should prevail as they've got more experience to call upon - I'd give fair odds you don't agree with that though.

 

[Biohazard]

The older generation still have to count though as they also live there, unless the argument can be made that it's selfishness from them voting for retaining the Union as they're affecting their childrens future. The obvious argument that would be made there is that older, wiser heads should prevail as they've got more experience to call upon - I'd give fair odds you don't agree with that though.

Of course the elderly have to count, I wouldn't have it any other way regardless of the outcome.

That argument would be pretty similar to what I would employ depending, yes. Regarding the wiser comment, that is certainly an aspect that cannot be dismissed out of hand. Although just as many old people are unlikely to listen to the arguments and more likely apply historical or emotional attributions or connections to it. They come from a very different day in Scotland and it's always been the case. They also wouldn't have to live with the consequences long term, the younger demographic will.

It's a mixed bag and not as easy as generalising, hence why until there are more polls and discussion on the topic I can't really say much more and make a choice.

Really though I'd like it to be put to a sensible and well-worded referendum to settle the issue one way or the other as once that's done we can move on, whichever option is chosen is ultimately fine with me but the indecision isn't very good for anyone.

If it does result in defeat it is unlikely to be shelved perminantly.

 

[Evoss]

OcUK should become a political party... we shall set this country right xD

 

[Ivan Drago]

Divide and conquer = weak.

There are forces who are trying to split the Anglosphere and the West in particular to weaken them politically and subjugate them economically.

Scotland is culturally, historically, racially and militarily almost identical with the rest of GB. Stick together.

 

[Biohazard]

Divide and conquer = weak.

There are forces who are trying to split the Anglosphere and the West in particular to weaken them politically and subjugate them economically.

That's a bit tinfoil hat is it not?

Scotland is culturally, historically, racially and militarily almost identical with the rest of GB. Stick together.

I don't think I can accept that on any of those levels.

There isn't much unity in this union.

 

[nydryl]

We should be left to our own devices to roam the lands in heavy sodden soiled skirts with our plump hairy balls swinging freely in the cool northern breeze as we hunt that wee sleekit couring timorous beastie that is the haggis through our grassy fields and heather lined hills so we can return to our camps with food before we rape and pillage our smacked up women as we smoke a fag with our left hand and neck a special brew with our right.

 

[[FnG]magnolia]

Im pretty sure we discuss this every week.

I don't think "discuss" means what you think it means. "Quarrel like children" is probably more accurate.

 

[semi-pro waster]

Of course the elderly have to count, I wouldn't have it any other way regardless of the outcome.

That argument would be pretty similar to what I would employ depending, yes. Regarding the wiser comment, that is certainly an aspect that cannot be dismissed out of hand. Although just as many old people are unlikely to listen to the arguments and more likely apply historical or emotional attributions or connections to it. They come from a very different day in Scotland and it's always been the case. They also wouldn't have to live with the consequences long term, the younger demographic will.

It's a mixed bag and not as easy as generalising, hence why until there are more polls and discussion on the topic I can't really say much more and make a choice.

I didn't think you were really advocating ignoring the elderly but thought you might appreciate the pedantry of being picked up on it not being as clear as it could have been.

Sorry, I've just spent most of the day going over disclosure notes so nuances seem even more evident now than they normally would be.

If it does result in defeat it is unlikely to be shelved perminantly.

I'm sure if it was a defeat for independence it wouldn't completely halt calls for independence but at least it would settle the uncertainty and be a mandate for a generation or so. If it isn't successful this time then it seems fair to me to offer the choice once every couple of decades (give or take) and that way people have their chance to vote on the future of their country as the point you raise is fair - different generations almost certainly will have different opinions on what is good for them so how long should they be held in thrall to the decisions of their parents?

 

[VoG]

I suspect that when there is a referendum on Scottish independance, if they don't get the answer there looking for, the question will just be reworded however many times is needed to get the "correct" answer. & ide put money on the SNP not waiting a couple of decades in between referendums.

 

[nydryl]

I think a no vote would be the end of the matter for a good while. Fingers crossed anyway.

 

[Biohazard]

I didn't think you were really advocating ignoring the elderly but thought you might appreciate the pedantry of being picked up on it not being as clear as it could have been.

Sorry, I've just spent most of the day going over disclosure notes so nuances seem even more evident now than they normally would be.

Indeed, and thank you very much. Getting sloppy it would seem.

I'm sure if it was a defeat for independence it wouldn't completely halt calls for independence but at least it would settle the uncertainty and be a mandate for a generation or so. If it isn't successful this time then it seems fair to me to offer the choice once every couple of decades (give or take) and that way people have their chance to vote on the future of their country as the point you raise is fair - different generations almost certainly will have different opinions on what is good for them so how long should they be held in thrall to the decisions of their parents?

It depends, if it is anything like the '79 devolution referendum it could enbolden the movement. If it is a clear no then yes it will be shelved for a long time. If close I'd probably hazard a guess at a decade or two for a repeat. The latter would also be my answer for the grounding opinion of our elders.

 

[div0]

Must resist the obvious troll.

I'll maybe reply tomorrow after I get back from the job centre, having blown my 'earnings' on booze and fags.

 

[Biohazard]

I suspect that when there is a referendum on Scottish independance, if they don't get the answer there looking for, the question will just be reworded however many times is needed to get the "correct" answer. & ide put money on the SNP not waiting a couple of decades in between referendums.

Alex has already conceded that it would be off the cards for a generation.

Acting as you describe would only reject popular opinion and damage the argument, it's currently the unionist cabal that is flapping about in a panic about the wording et al.

 

[Participant]

Ah humanity's desire to divide and segregate rears its ugly head yet again.