UKIP move up to third in polls....

[bhavv]

Ten things the EU has done for Britain.

What shocks me the most in this thread is how a lot of people actually do not seem to understand how the European Union works and I implore those individuals to stop listening to the UKIP and Farrage as the videos shown in the thread merely proves that Farrage has not idea himself!

I'm backing out of this thread and will leave people to it.

What shocks me the most is that you even consider that list to be a valid list of reasons supporting the EU ... It isn't.

We would still have all those things without the EU, some things on that list are actually what Britain has done for the EU, not the other way around, and we simply do not need the EU at all, our alliances with the USA, Canada, Australia and South Africa are significantly more valuable than what the EU can do for us.

British laws being dictated or overruled by the EU is another downer, we have to harbor and keep convicted terrorists here because the EU supreme court won't allow their deportation, even though they are nationals of other countries.

Britain alone needs to rule Britain, not the useless undemocratic EU.

 

[pingwing]

Britain alone needs to rule Britain, not the useless undemocratic EU.

Bum de BUMMMMMMM

Worst argument against the EU as the EU is not even meant to be a democratic institution! The EU is similar to the UN in the sense that it is an institution designed to maintain the territorial sovereignty of the currently existing European states (note states not nations).

So for your extradition ruling, what the EU is supporting is the fact being a citizen of the EU ensures that an individual cannot be subject to laws of a territory they are not a citizen of.

So UKIP's argument that "we are a sovereign state and therefore should be able to choose who is a citizen and who is not" is actually an argument that the territory is only sovereign for people who we choose (based on arbitrary guess work), when the EU is out to protect the sovereignty of ALL citizens on the basis they are citizens and thus if they have done anything wrong should be given trial in the territory that provides their citizenship.

Basically UKIP want to invalidate the UK's sovereignty (as a state) because they want to create a citizenship that (wrongly) can exclude for no reason, which the EU ultimately protects against.

 

[bhavv]

what the EU is supporting is the fact being a citizen of the EU ensures that an individual cannot be subject to laws of a territory they are not a citizen of.

So thats why we cant deport Abu Qatada back to Jordan is it?

Does not compute.

Basically UKIP want to invalidate the UK's sovereignty (as a state) because they want to create a citizenship that (wrongly) can exclude for no reason

False. They want more control over people who do not yet have legal citizenship ,but are entering the country and obtaining it too easily. They arent doing anything to change or alter the current citizenship that legal residents of the UK have, they want to increase the requirements for non nationals to be able to gain citizenship, no differently to how it works in Canada and Australia.

the EU is not even meant to be a democratic institution!

And people in the UK dont want to be a member state of a non democratic institution that has the power to control and override any level of the law within this country.

 

[Nitefly]

So thats why we cant deport Abu Qatada back to Jordan is it?

Does not compute.

Nothing to do with the EU

European Court of Human Rights / Convention of Human Rights - not the EU, although there is some overlap following the lisbon treaty. Regardless, it's nothing to do with the topic.

Edit - Just to add, it is baffling the amount of people who are completely anti-EU and have absolutely no understanding about it (not Bhavv, just people in general). If you didn't know that the European Court of Human Rights isn't a part of the EU, then you shouldn't even have an opinion on the EU really.

 

[bhavv]

Nothing to do with the EU

European Court of Human Rights / Convention of Human Rights - not the EU, although there is some overlap following the lisbon treaty. Regardless, it's nothing to do with the topic.

Well maybe not that case, but this is true:

Although the EU has a parliament, a single state's objection to a new piece of legislation would make no difference if the other 26 states were in favour of it.

Nation states no longer get a veto when deciding on new legislation. New legislation is put through either by consensus among the members, or by qualified majority voting. Thus countries cannot block legislation they strongly disagree with.

Essentially the EU is too great a body to legislate and the power should be handed back to Westminster.

And many more reasons here http://debatewise.org/debates/784-the-uk-should-leave-the-european-union#point_3800_headline

 

[The Halk]

Compared to the amount of barely-English speaking, uneducated, criminal etc. British people we have it's basically a non-issue. Fix that and you fix the other. "Fix bad immigration" and you just leave yourself with something else to complain about but less of an excuse.

It's a related but slightly different issue...

What you're talking about is "taking our jobs" which is the attitude from some Brits that the jobs in the UK should go to British people, even though we benefit from being able to go anywhere in the world in a free market.. Employers will always take a British person over a EU national, all other things being equal. However all other things aren't equal and we have a great deal of useless youth - failed by a number of factors. You're right though, fix that and we fix a lot of other things.

There still will be some people that want to get into the UK by any means possible who are prepared to work on the black market. By family, by asylum, by student visa. Even if we do fix our unemployable youth we'll still have that to deal with.

We must remain open for business though, shutting down immigration completely is economic suicide.

 

[Nitefly]

Well maybe not that case, but this is true:

Yes it's true, but of what practical significance do you think it actually has? The EU doesn't have jurisdiction to legislate on everthing, mostly only trade and competition and there are already regulations in place to prevent undue unfairness (e.g. countries cannot gang up to the detriment of another to do anything that might have a restriction of trade and services). It's just such a totally bogus point that is of absolutely no significance to anything. It's, quite genuinely, like saying humans can not have evolved from apes because there are still apes.

Just galactic misinformation

 

[bhavv]

Just galactic misinformation

But I agree with all of the following:

As a member of the EU, Britain has lost control of her borders. Some 2.5 million immigrants have arrived since 1997 and up to one million economic migrants live here illegally. Former New Labour staff maintain that this policy has been a deliberate attempt to water down the British identity and buy votes. EU and human rights legislation means we cannot even expel foreign criminals if they come from another EU country. This is why immigration control is so essential and overdue. UKIP will:

· End mass, uncontrolled immigration. UKIP calls for an immediate five-year freeze on immigration for permanent settlement. We aspire to ensure that any future immigration does not exceed 50,000 people p.a.

· Regain control of UK borders. This can only be done by leaving the European Union. Entry for work will be on a time-limited work permit only. Entry for non-work related purposes (e.g. holiday or study) will be on a temporary visa. Overstaying will be a criminal offence

· Ensure all EU citizens who came to Britain after 1 January 2004 are treated in the same way as citizens from other countries (unless entitled to ‘Permanent Leave to Remain’). Non- UK citizens travelling to or from the UK will have their entry and exit recorded. To enforce this, the number of UK Borders Agency staff engaged in controlling immigration will be tripled to 30,000

· Ensure that after the five-year freeze, any future immigration for permanent settlement will be on a strictly controlled, points-based system similar to Australia, Canada and New Zealand

· Return people found to be living illegally in the UK to their country of origin. There can be no question of an amnesty for illegal immigrants. Such amnesties merely encourage further illegal immigration

http://www.ukip.org/content/ukip-policies/1499-immigration-ukip-policy

 

[pingwing]

So thats why we cant deport Abu Qatada back to Jordan is it?

Does not compute.

The point is you can't treat people like cattle and send them to their deaths because of accusations. If he goes to Jordan he will die, regardless of a lack of evidence (which the UK has found out because of our attempts to prosecute him).

Once a state cannot provide this security to one individual it cannot provide it to any individual and stops being a modern "sovereign" state (defaulting back to what we call now an imperial power with no responsibility to its citizens).

False. They want more control over people who do not yet have legal citizenship ,but are entering the country and obtaining it too easily. They arent doing anything to change or alter the current citizenship that legal residents of the UK have, they want to increase the requirements for non nationals to be able to gain citizenship, no differently to how it works in Canada and Australia.

No, the EU ensures that we (as a state) can provide a citizenship and a set standard of treatment to non-citizens. The moment we leave the EU, someone like UKIP can legitimately go "right Muslims not citizens, deal with it". Simple as that.

Citizenship should not be treated as a privilege that we should keep from "other people" because they are from somewhere else. The Canadian and Australian systems are utter nonsense as they regard the state as more or less complete with what they have, so nothing with change, evolve or progress.

And people in the UK dont want to be a member state of a non democratic institution that has the power to control and override any level of the law within this country.

I cant put this in any bigger letters.

The people of the UK get told democracy is amazing, what we all want and what we should always argue for. Yet democracy is always subjective, its never constant and different in every state, language and culture.

To say we a a population of 4-5 nations in 1 state "don't want to live in an undemocratic institution" is nonsense.

To present the EU as an entirely bad thing because of what it does just shows the ignorance of the idea that a state can exist on its own. If Britain existed on its own, we would all be even worse off, subject to even more despotic rule (than the EU as you put it) and would be more like North Korea than a Western State.

 

[Nitefly]

But I agree with all of the following:

http://www.ukip.org/content/ukip-policies/1499-immigration-ukip-policy

You know when Kedge grabs new information and arguments to dodge and opposing points....?

I think there is an immigration problem in the UK and something should be done about, but that is something which can potentially be fixed without leaving the EU (immigration is not something the EU is primarily concerned with).

I will simply say this, to all of you:

With regards to the EU, be very, very careful with what you read and how the information is presented - it is more often than not laced with spin or misinformation. I've been attacked for the pompousity of this statement before, but it is difficult for anyone who isn't an economist or a lawyer to truly understand the EU, and even then the former will have a different spectrum of knowledge than the latter. The EU is massive and massively complicated. The most agreeable critcisms everyone can make are its slow speed and its buerocracy. With everything else... really do put on that thinking hat and if you are truly commited to understanding it, read some books.

 

[bhavv]

If Britain existed on its own, we would all be even worse off, subject to even more despotic rule (than the EU as you put it) and would be more like North Korea than a Western State.

......

Since you used a big picture, I will also respond in pictures to you.

 

[pingwing]

......

Since you used a big picture, I will also respond in pictures to you.

Well done for grasping the point, there are no facts for UKIP's claims, just nonsense of ripping off the BNP's manifesto.

Return people found to be living illegally in the UK to their country of origin. There can be no question of an amnesty for illegal immigrants. Such amnesties merely encourage further illegal immigration

Not even imaginative, just going "OTHER PEOPLE ARE BAD BECAUSE THEY COME FROM OTHER PLACES"

The arguments against EU membership are based on the fact that as a member we can't tell people we don't like to go away, which we have NEVER held the right to do as a state (of any kind) and I don't see why we should now.

 

[bhavv]

Not even imaginative, just going "OTHER PEOPLE ARE BAD BECAUSE THEY COME FROM OTHER PLACES"

No, its saying illegal immigration is bad, and illegal immigrants shouldnt be kept here, thats very clear and concise to understand to me.

New immigrants will be subject to a points based check as used by canada, australia and new zealand after a 5 year cooling period with a halt on permanent settlement ... Citizenship will require residency in the UK of at least 5 years anyway, and these policies will not exclude legal migrants with valid work permits and visas, they will simply be required to:

1) Pass a points based check
2) Work for at least 5 years
3) Pass a citizenship test

The total number of immigrants legally entering the country will be capped to 50,000 per annum.

As done in plenty of other countries, even ones within Europe like France and Norway.

 

[pingwing]

No, its saying illegal immigration is bad, and illegal immigrants shouldnt be kept here, thats very clear and concise to understand to me.

New immigrants will be subject to a points based check as used by canada, australia and new zealand after a 5 year cooling period with a halt on permanent settlement ... Citizenship will require residency in the UK of at least 5 years anyway, and these policies will not exclude legal migrants with valid work permits and visas.

It's saying that the UK should be a privilege to its citizens, one that requires us to keep it from other people and potentially tell current citizens they are not for unrelated criteria.

Linking this to legitimate migration is just annoying as they are not the same issue.

Putting criteria on what British citizenship is can only lead to requiring current citizens to abide by a "code of citizenship" which can remove any valid criticism of the state in the first place (like it being un-American to be against gun ownership).

The point is being a British citizen has never needed a handbook and never should. Putting this sort of requirement on on a situation within life that everyone has to have to operate as people is inhumane, millions of people exist as "citizenshipless" because of the rules of citizenship in certain states (Turks in Germany pre 94 is the classic example) and Britain should never start imposing such a stupid state of affairs on people just because other states have.

 

[bhavv]

So Canada is inhumane?

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizenship/become-eligibility.asp

Thats a new one to me, yet Canada, Norway, Australia and France all come within the top 5-10 countries to live in according to the UN, while the UK isnt even within the top 20.

Whatever the UK is doing, it is simply doing everything wrong compared to those countries I named.

 

[pingwing]

I'm going to put this simply, states in the modern world exist in several international systems (the UN, EU and so on). UKIP want us to exist out side of these to exert our sovereignty as a state. By removing our selves from these systems, as a state we are invalidating our sovereignty as a state because it is harder for us to exist in a globalised world.

By creating limits to our citizenship we may well be protecting who ever we have here (regardless of how "deserving" they are of this protection, i.e. the last batch of rioters) but we are preventing and holding back the state within a globalised world because we need the trade flexibility that comes from it.

Basically UKIP want to withdraw from the EU to exert power, but by doing so it severally limits any power the state has. Therefore UKIP are blindly stupid.

 

[bhavv]

No, I just think that you just overestimate how bad leaving the EU would be as well as its importance (of which there is really none).

 

[Judgeneo]

With regards to the EU, be very, very careful with what you read and how the information is presented - it is more often than not laced with spin or misinformation. I've been attacked for the pompousity of this statement before, but it is difficult for anyone who isn't an economist or a lawyer to truly understand the EU, and even then the former will have a different spectrum of knowledge than the latter. The EU is massive and massively complicated. The most agreeable critcisms everyone can make are its slow speed and its buerocracy. With everything else... really do put on that thinking hat and if you are truly commited to understanding it, read some books.

The economic argument is the main reason I'm anti-EU. Lots of anti-EU arguments from an economic perspective get shouted down anyway, my dad joined UKIP over 10 years ago when his university stopped him publishing a (economic) paper because it was too critical of the EU...

 

[Strife212]

The EU in it's modern form hasn't existed for very long at all. People act like it's been around for ever. Norway isn't a member, doesn't seem to hurt them at all.

There are so many layers of insane bureaucracy it's beyond reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_the_European_Union
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Council
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament

What's the point? It's just a waste. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone other than someone studying the EU who understands how the whole thing works, and that's just shocking for a government.

 

[PermaBanned]

None of those things are exclusive to being in the EU however...many countries that are not in the EU have similar or comparable benefits...

What about tax breaks on imports?