UKIP move up to third in polls....

[Strife212]

Will never vote UKIP, I actually quite like the EU and what they've done for the UK. Maybe I'm just biased cause I went to an actual European School, interacted with people from across the world on a daily basis, have lived in 4 different countries so far and speak 5 different languages. A lot of posters in this thread need to get out more and see the world before they start posting about how scary non-british folk are .
Most people who call themselves British on here would fail the citizenship test given to immigrants anyway .

Complete straw man argument, because the EU and Europe are not the same, as mentioned above.

 

[LLBDTiberio]

Complete straw man argument, because the EU and Europe are not the same, as mentioned above.

I apologise, I should have been more clear, but I was talking about the European Union which has actually provided me with all those things I listed previously. I would argue the EU is democratic to some extent as all EU citizens are entitled to vote in the elections to choose MEP's (who decide on EU matters). Unfortunately most people cannot be bothered to vote so yes it is undemocratic in that aspect (although I could argue the same for Westminster being undemocratic as most of Scotland didn't vote for the con/libdems). I do have a lot of gripe with how the EU handle certain issues like Greece or their outright pandering to Neoliberalism but it is also a symptom of a wider problem in which politicians care little about the people who vote for them, but outright leaving the EU will not solve anything, it will merely make it much worse for the UK. I believe in the principle idea of the EU, that we are stronger together than separate.

@The Halk, I do not argue that people who are against the EU are racists, but funnily enough the people most vocal about the failings of the EU are the same ones screaming from rooftops about how bad immigrants are, I detest being considered a bad person for choosing to come to the UK to learn, study and work, not to mention having UKIP members scream at me in my doorway that I should go home to where I came from.

 

[bhavv]

Wrong there, a lot of EU MEPs got into power without any kind of vote, which is one of the main reasons why the UKIP are against the EU.

Hence why people say it is not a democratic process. Labour signed to a lot of EU stuff without a single vote asking if the public wanted it or not, again not democratic.

 

[SheepBeast]

100% agree with this.



Then you ruined it. As I said above, it is NOT racist to want to leave the EU, or to control immigration.

I was speaking more of the BNP than of UKIP. I don't really know enough about what the EU actually does to know whether I want to be a part of it, so I don't really hold an opinion. The point I was trying to make is just that the whole of British politics is in such a **** state that it's very hard for people to have any confidence that there is a party which they can trust, a party which will actually change things for the better. They've been lied to for decades by politicians promising things they know they can't deliver, just to gain votes from the gullible public, only for them to get into power and achieve maybe 10% of what was promised and therefore expected of them. People are just fed up of it, and many realise now that if barely matters who is in power. The country is in a **** state and there is very little that can be done to fix it within the space of a single term of government.

The other big issue is that the general public are pretty much ignorant of exactly what the governemt does, and of the problems it faces. Most people either don't have the time, or simply don't care enough, to research about the economy and what the effects of different changes would be. Or to read up about what the reasons are for going to war in Iraq. Etc etc. People just vote with their gut, they don't vote on which party has the best plan because whether they admit it or not they don't have the first clue about the issues which need to be addressed. Personally I am a student at a top university with very good grades, I read the news, I look up things online, and I still don't have a clue. I would guess that the average member of the population has even less of one than I do.

Throw in the fact that a massive number of people don't even vote at all, and it becomes hard to have much faith in our current voting system actually delivering us the quality of government, and representation, that we need.

 

[The Halk]

@The Halk, I do not argue that people who are against the EU are racists, but funnily enough the people most vocal about the failings of the EU are the same ones screaming from rooftops about how bad immigrants are, I detest being considered a bad person for choosing to come to the UK to learn, study and work, not to mention having UKIP members scream at me in my doorway that I should go home to where I came from.

In one sentence you say you're not arguing that anti-EU is racist, and then you say it's funny but they are. I'm not saying it was aliens...

As for UKIP members screaming at you... do you typically check the party political membership of someone shouting at you?

That aside... petty little racists are going to side with a party that suits their agenda. That shouldn't automatically mean that the party is to be ignored.

 

[Castiel]

I'm not a fan of the EU and it would be hard to accuse me of racism or railing against immigration.

To suggest that being a Euro Sceptic is akin to racism and bigotry is laughable at best, what it does suggest is that those that imply such have no real defence of their opinion and thus resort to trying to villify and demonise their opposition instead.

 

[LLBDTiberio]

Halk, UKIP members were at my door during the Scottish general election to get votes I guess and when I told them that I was not interested as I quite enjoy the EU and being an immigrant myself they started yelling about how I should go back to where I came from. I cannot vote for a party that allows this sort of attitude towards anyone.

Bhavv, do you have any information about how EU MEP's got into power without a vote being held, if that's the case that's certainly wrong, and I will gladly admit it. The government of each EU country does decide if they want a vote on an EU issue, it's not the EU's fault if the UK decides not to hold a referendum.

At the end of the day, people can vote for whatever party they want to, I'm happy people at least make the effort to vote.

 

[bhavv]

Bhavv, do you have any information about how EU MEP's got into power without a vote being held, if that's the case that's certainly wrong, and I will gladly admit it. The government of each EU country does decide if they want a vote on an EU issue, it's not the EU's fault if the UK decides not to hold a referendum.

Erm, the entire video of that Farage guy ripping people apart in some EU meeting thing?

No I'm not gonna search for it.

I guess and when I told them that I was not interested as I quite enjoy the EU and being an immigrant myself they started yelling about how I should go back to where I came from. I cannot vote for a party that allows this sort of attitude towards anyone.

The conservatives and even labour will have some loonies following them who believe and would say the same things, this doesnt however represent the political party that those people are supporting. The UKIP have had a lot of far right / BNP infiltrators over the last however many years, but they have always been a non racist, non sectarian party.

 

[Monkeynut]

If the UKIP continues to beat the Lib Dems in the polls will they be added onto voting intention graphs instead of the big three and then "other"? Or does the Lib Dems being in government make their voting intention more relevant?

Thoughts?

 

[PermaBanned]

Erm, the entire video of that Farage guy ripping people apart in some EU meeting thing?

No I'm not gonna search for it.

That's just a video of somebody who believes it saying it. It's not proof.

 

[The Halk]

The LibDems are suffering a backlash at the moment from their socialist-left tending supporters who are in favour of anybody but the tories. It's unclear if they'll return to form. As much as I do prefer UKIP to the other 4 parties (SNP, as I'm Scottish) I think it's very premature to call them the 3rd party in British politics.

 

[LLBDTiberio]

Are you talking about this video where he talks about Greece and the greek PM?
As far as I can see, ALL EU MEP's are directly elected for the European Parliament, the Commission and The council are not however but share equal power with the parliament where all legislation starts.
Please see Wiki article explaining the EU parliament.
I will ask again, which EU MEP's have not been democratically elected as all MEP's are in accordance with EU law or are you talking about the Commision which is not directly elected or maybe the council?

I will withdraw my statement that insinuates the UKIP is bigoted seeing as I might be biased after my personal experience with members but I will retain that the UK needs the EU a lot more than the EU needs the UK.

 

[bhavv]

Nope, it was several years older than that.

This one here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViPm0GUxw-M&feature=related

Meh, I think thats a different one, but just similar.

There was another video of an unelected MEP that Farage completely exposed, this is just another. Lots of MEPs have not been elected, the system is entirely buereocratic and really no one has any idea how those MEPs got into their seats, nor do we know who they are, nor do we want them deciding our politics for us.

 

[Tute]

Halk, UKIP members were at my door during the Scottish general election to get votes I guess and when I told them that I was not interested as I quite enjoy the EU and being an immigrant myself they started yelling about how I should go back to where I came from. I cannot vote for a party that allows this sort of attitude towards anyone.

You should have called the police then?

 

[The Halk]

I will withdraw my statement that insinuates the UKIP is bigoted seeing as I might be biased after my personal experience with members but I will retain that the UK needs the EU a lot more than the EU needs the UK.

Yeah, I think it's a fallacy to think that all UKIP are racist/xenophobic/bigots. It's rather sad that anyone said that to you, but it doesn't mean the rest of UKIP voters etc are that way. I don't doubt for a second that racists/xenophobes would vote UKIP, simply because they would want closed borders and UKIP is the only viable option for that.

 

[LLBDTiberio]

Bhavv, which EU president are you talking about as there are 3?

EU president.

Judging from what Farrage says, he's on about the Council President who is indeed not directly elected, but is not a president dictating policy of any kind, I quote

"The president's role is largely political, preparing the work of the European Council, organising and chairing its meetings, seeking to find consensus among its members and reporting to the European Parliament after each meeting; the president will also "at his level and in that capacity, ensure the external representation of the Union on issues concerning its common foreign and security policy, without prejudice to the powers of the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security".

He is a glorified ambassador as far as I can see?

I have still not seen any evidence pointing towards which EU parliamentery MEP is unelected as they are all required to be democratically elected under EU law?

 

[bhavv]

That wasnt the right video as I said, it just looked similar.

they are all required to be democratically elected under EU law?

This law has been skipped for some members of the EU parliament, simple as that. They were given their positions without having been voted in. Im not going to bother looking through every single speech to find the right one, you can research it yourself if you want. I know and remember what I've already seen.

 

[Castiel]

I will retain that the UK needs the EU a lot more than the EU needs the UK.

Can you qualify that...especially in light that the UK is a net contributor to the EU and unlike the majority of other Nations within the EU who are net recipients.....

I would say that the UK benefits from its relationship with the rest of the EU, however the EU benefits far more by having a large net contributor in it's ranks...

The UK could, for example receive similar benefits as it currently does with regard to the trade, movement and social aspects of the relationship by being in a similar position to Switzerland, but without the huge ongoing capital investment to a largely undemocratic, corrupt, self serving and publicly isolated junta in Brussels. The EU leadership is so Franco-German centric that it is embarrassing tbh....

The political union is not necessary to have free trade, freedom of movement, bilateral cooperation and so on.....so how that benefits Britain is something I would like explained and evidenced.

 

[RagingBull]

It would be nice to have a government who puts our people first instead of immigrants. Left or right doesn't matter there have been governments who are considered right wing that have done nothing about immigration. All the major parties support it because it's part of a global agenda.

Those on the far-right ore the only ones to have our interests at heart we should be voting for them but instead we vote for parties who are against us! madness.

 

[bhavv]

I think the UK benefits more from its relationship with the USA, Canada and Australia than it does from the EU.

The rest of Europe doesnt even seem to like the UK.