UEFA CHAMPIONS LEAGUE FINAL ... Bayern Munich v Chelsea ... *** Spoilers ***

Tummy said:
This attitude of 'they won, end of' is one of the things that's wrong with English football. The results shouldn't paper over what was, a poor performance. Chelsea didn't win that game over 90 or 120 minutes. Bayern lost it.
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My point about them winning was more directly aimed at your attempt to belittle the win, do you really think it makes a difference if you win over 90 minutes, 120 minutes or penalties? They're all perfectly legitimate ways to decide a football match. And it doesn't paper over the cracks, if you can match a team offensively, but chose to play a very defensive game, you're going to be losing more games than you would have if you played to your strengths.

I don't think it's wrong to want attractive football, not at all, it's something for all teams to aspire to.

But when being critical of teams playing a defensive game, I think it's important to take into account whether it's actually within their ability to play a more attractive style.

Chelsea parked the bus against Barca and hoped for the best, I think most sane people would agree that's about all you can do against them. Bayern were a little more there for the taking than Barca, so had Chelsea's gameplan not worked they would only have themselves to blame. But it did work, so while we can all be critical of certain things, most of us will stop short of actually condemning how they went about winning the european cup.
 
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wedgie said:
They're champions of europe. They won, end of.

They also did the exact same thing against Barcelona away, unless it was ok on that occasion?
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I honestly don't know what people expect. With the players they have and form they were in doing anything more positive against either team and they would have got torn apart.

Under those circumstances they had to adapt to a plan, they did and they won. Hardly their fault Barca couldn't break them down and Bayern couldn't finish.

Yet had they gone cavalier and got beat 5-0 the same people would be laughing at them. Barca are a one trick pony, it's not Chelseas fault he can't score against them.
 
wedgie said:
My point about them winning was more directly aimed at your attempt to belittle the win, do you really think it makes a difference if you win over 90 minutes, 120 minutes or penalties? They're all perfectly legitimate ways to decide a football match.
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I'm not more belittling the win, then I am the '99 win for example. The best side on those nights, did not win the cup. Do I think it's a hollow victory? Yes, do I expect anyone else cares? Maybe.

Penalties is a horrible way to finish a game, exciting, but horrible.

wedgie said:
I don't think it's wrong to want attractive football, not at all, it's something for all teams to aspire to.
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Awesome, we agree.

wedgie said:
But when being critical of teams playing a defensive game, I think it's important to take into account whether it's actually within their ability to play a more attractive style.
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I have nothing wrong with a team playing defensive football, I've said in the past, but I have a problem with teams that play unambitious, defensive, negative football. Chelsea didn't play 'well' either.

wedgie said:
Chelsea parked the bus against Barca and hoped for the best, I think most sane people would agree that's about all you can do against them. Bayern were a little more there for the taking than Barca, so had Chelsea's gameplan not worked they would only have themselves to blame. But it did work, so while we can all be critical of certain things, most of us will stop short of actually condemning how they went about winning the european cup.
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Not really, Barcelona have been beaten by teams parking the bus and by teams going for them, this 'whole you have to play like that against them' is stupid. You can play however you want against them, some set ups are obviously going to be more effective. The majority of teams in Spain line up and park the bus against them, but a good number don't. If you've watched them at all this season; you'll be able to see that Barcelona have looked very suspect when teams get in and around them and try and play football against them.

Presenting two banks of five players isn't a viable way to win a game, it's a viable way to not lose.

I said that Chelsea looked good when counter attacking, bar Drogba's antics, Barcelona couldn't deal with him when he was going forward. They could, have done this more effectively, Barcelona, despite all their shots / possession could have walked that game and by the same margins Chelsea could have scored more.
 
dannyjo22 said:
Yet had they gone cavalier and got beat 5-0 the same people would be laughing at them. Barca are a one trick pony, it's not Chelseas fault he can't score against them.
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They don't have to be 'cavalier', people are dealing with such daft extreme's. You had Raymonds ridiculous claims about conceding ten as long as you win comment and this.

Chelsea were never going to open up and play Barcelona style football, they played the game by setting up and forcing Barcelona out wide, preventing them playing through the middle. My point was that Chelsea should and could have showed more footballing ambition in going for Barcelona on those two occasions. Barcelona couldn't deal with Drogba, Barcelona couldn't deal with the rapid counter attacks. Chelsea opted to not do this all night. I think it showed a lack of footballing ambition.
 
Tummy said:
I think it showed a lack of footballing ambition.
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at a club level, the cl is one of the most prestigous of prizes, how can playing a defensive game to win show a lack of footballing ambition?

it's a competition, competitivness, knowing ones strengths and your oppositions weakness. to say playing a defensive strategy shows a lack of footballing ambition is looking at it completely the wrong way. this is true of all sports.
 
Tummy said:
I think it showed a lack of footballing ambition.
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I think it showed a team fully aware that if they were more adventurous, their chances of winning would reduce substantially.
Tummy said:
I'm fed up of repeating myself and being mocked.

I'm out.
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No mocking from me, I think your view is mental, but you're of course ok to think the same of mine :).
 
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I don't see the hate for defensive play. I personally enjoyed seeing Greece defend their way to Euro 2004. It was, a tactical masterpiece. Chelsea did the same in this seasons CL. It works, the cup win obviously shows that.

Why does everyone expect all teams to be like Barcelona? It won't work, you'll just get a below par imitation which will be exploited heavily.

AVB tried the high line offensive play with Chelsea and look where it got them. Mid table in the league and on the verge of exit from the CL. It doesn't work for most clubs, the hate because they play the way that works for them is far from justified imo.

Of course, everyone is welcome to their opinion but I have to strongly disagree with peoples expectations here.

You also have to remember a lot of say, Barcelona's attacking confidence comes from playing minnow teams in the Spanish league week in week out. They're just used to going all out and meeting no resistance. Same can be said for Bayern and the German league. You got a few teams who have quality, but the rest are just minnows who lie back and spread their legs wide.

In the EPL, even if you have an amazing team, if you play offensively then you can be exploited. Look at what QPR did to City on the break. That almost cost them the league.
 
Tummy, I get what you're saying and agree to a certain point.

All things being equal I can't stand the anti football style, couple things to note though, Chelsea didn't perform badly they were stunningly good, it was just a stunning defensive performance, not a stunning offensive performance, however Drogba still did excellently when he got the ball.

A poor performance would be a team sitting back with 11 behind the ball and getting insanely lucky, that many blocks, that many GOOD blocks, that many interceptions, the positioning, the discipline, it was nothing short of exceptional by many of the players. Lampard was a 10/10 performance, he was everywhere, someone a lot of people claimed was too old and past it, put in a performance defensively, not his main strength, that put everyone on Bayern, Barca, Utd, Arsenal to shame, other teams in this competition with players who have played a similar role and been shown up by a "old" attacking midfield player.

Mikel performed above and beyond what anyone ever expected of him, Cole, after his early season form, put in the performance of his life, Cahill, etc, etc.

I prefer attacking football, but can appreciate great defence, you are wrong to say Chelsea performed badly.

Anyway, yes I'd prefer it if Chelsea won the game with a great offensive performance, its unfair to say much bad because they didn't.

Think of it this way, Mourinho has done the same by building from the ground up an ultra defensive team intentionally, had 2 seasons and he inherited a squad with a very good defence in a defensive league.

RDM had, weeks basically to take a struggling team with which he couldn't buy or change the squad at all. He did the best with what he had, a struggling team that could barely put a performance together. He built from the back and did it exceptionally well, hopefully we see him(if he gets the chance) to take the team forward, have a preseason, instill some attacking football and not resort to ultra defensive performances.

But little to no time to build and sort out a team before the Barca game, no grudge at all.

Mourinho, he had 2 years to build a top notch team and went completely anti football, more so than Chelsea did, and he spent a lot of money and actively chose that route over two seasons. That for me was unforgiveable, RDM for me, had basically no other choice.
 
wedgie said:
They're champions of europe. They won, end of.

They also did the exact same thing against Barcelona away, unless it was ok on that occasion?
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It was worse vs Barca since they didn't actually defend well at all really, Barca just couldn't finish countless easy goals, the praise for those 2 legs is shocking.

However Cech was good in the final on penalties and Cole was just sublime. Chelsea would have ran away with it if they had their hoofball tactic to Ramires
 
Tummy said:
Haha, it will be ages before it happens. Wait until next seasons campaign starts and you're the 'defending champions'
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It won't be easy to take it off our hands and one of our targets for next season will be to win again. Watch this space. :D
 
Tummy said:
I wouldn't, I mean, in that situation, no, I'd have no problem in giving the better side on the night, the team who should have won, the trophy.

I just don't believe in winning ugly.

I wouldn't expect a Leeds fan to understand though :p
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Yeah, cos Wednesday are a shining beacon of total football :)
 
Is someone actually saying they'd rather they're team played beautiful attacking football and didn't win anything, rather than play defensively and win? Wind your neck in, even if you're right you can't say that here - Gilly

I've seen teams play a lot more defensively than Chelsea did in the final. A lot of times they actually played some nice stuff passing it out from the back. Hardly like they hoofed it away as soon as they got possession back. Bayern were hardly the perfect definition of attacking football. Give it to Robben and watch him run at someone, cut inside and shoot over; great to watch. Bayern didn't deserve to win purely for the fact they were awful infront of goal and bottled a penalty in extra time. Why Robben takes their penalties I'll never know. Chelsea deserve to be champions because they won the game. Can't expect a team that was in ruins half way through the season to suddenly start playing beautiful football again. RDM had to rebuild with what he had, and that always starts from the back.
 
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