Kimber cable "how much"

only blind, reproducible listening tests will confirm whether or not that construction actually results in audible differences.

I feel like I'm repeatedly pointing out the flipping obvious, but I'm in one of those dreams where no-one can hear you screaming. :)

If cables companies quoted - in blind tests 95% of people preferred the more expensive would you believe them.... probably not as wouldnt a lot of others, in theory then it holds less value than saying it in the first place
 
If cables companies quoted - in blind tests 95% of people preferred the more expensive would you believe them.... probably not as wouldnt a lot of others, in theory then it holds less value than saying it in the first place

Why wouldn't we believe them if they could point us to a peer reviewed study in a scientific journal?
 
That is a fair cop - however you name one manufacturer who does this, with the exception of beauty cosmetics in their adverts on tv

Can you name another manufacturer that makes such outlandish claims and charges such outlandish prices that they would be called upon to justify them?
 
there are lots that do that - if you look at the cost of the internals for a high end spinner for example they would cartainly not justify the ££££ price tag - same thing really.

However you are paying for the design / R&D etc
 
there are lots that do that - if you look at the cost of the internals for a high end spinner for example they would cartainly not justify the ££££ price tag - same thing really.

However you are paying for the design / R&D etc

What's a high end spinner? Clearly I'm not down with the kids.

Anyway. The point stands. The claim that a metre of cable is worth £25k is laughable and should be justified in some way. For £25k it better come with a free blowjob and £24,900 in the box.
 
A spinner is something that spins - CD Player, Blu ray player etc I was referring to a CD Player but all products are the same.

Ah, OK.

EllisDJ said:

The bold claim is the price tag and the notion that 2.5m of cable could possibly be worth £18,000.

I also imagine the margins on cables like that are absolutely enormous, as I can't believe it costs 1/10 of that price to make that cable.
 
Here's the thing with ultra-expensive cables. It's like going to a super fancy restaurant and ordering a £100 pasta dish which makes great claims about it being the best pasta ever... but it's pasta which was bought from Tescos for £1.50.

That is not the same as eating £1.50 Tesco pasta, vs. paying decent money to eat somewhere that makes their own fresh pasta.

Virtually all cable companies have no production facilities and no R&D because they own no test equipment. They're just buying bulk materials for peanuts, wacking them together and selling them for markups so vast I struggle to think of another product line which does the same thing. If you look at someone like Blue Jeans Cables, there's no smoke and mirrors - they disclose exactly what their cables are made from and make no silly claims and their pricing is fair. Then you look at say, Virtual Dynamics... a few people started cutting open their cables, some accidentally, and discovered that, despite the usual pseudo-scientific jargon about it's properties, it was nothing more than bog standard wire, some sandblasting pellets, stuffed inside garden hose to make it thicker. Their power cables weren't even officially approved as far as safety certs went, so if it were the cause of a house fire your insurance company would laugh at you. Definitely not the exception to the rule, either.

Ultra expensive cable companies rely on the fact that nobody is going to ruin their cables pulling them apart to see what's actually inside them. By contrast, with an amp or DAC, you can always remove the casing and see the quality of soldering, the chips and op-amps used, and so on.

Ultra expensive cables are EXACTLY in the same boat as:
http://www.lessloss.com/blackbody-p-200.html
All of this http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina5.htm - people DO buy his stuff and I'm 99% sure he's the greatest audio troll ever
All of this http://www.shakti-innovations.com/audiovideo.htm
Etc etc. Note they all have 'white papers' too, saying a lot about nothing, really.

Energy bracelets, healing crystals and all that stuff... similar isn't it?

Again, not saying cables can't sound different (presuming extreme variations the properties which effect the signal), but there's high quality wire w/nice braiding that costs a fair bit, then there's "you are a mug if you buy this".
 
If cables companies quoted - in blind tests 95% of people preferred the more expensive would you believe them.... probably not as wouldnt a lot of others, in theory then it holds less value than saying it in the first place
Unsurprisingly, you're making another unfounded assumption - I'd look at their testing methods, but assuming they were valid and the results were repeatable, yes of course I'd believe them.

The more pertinent question is why those companies *don't* use blind test results as a marketing tool - on the contrary, purveyors of "audiophile" products often seem to spend their energies trying to denigrate blind testing as a concept, and you have to wonder at their motivations for doing so.
 
For the love of god, please stop the car analogies. :p How do differeng "handling" and "comfort" (which I could easily identify blind, with or without an extra 50bhp) equate to a supposed audible difference between cables if that difference *can't* be identified blind?
Because I'm not using it for that analogy, I'm just saying that to quote resistance as the only measure of whether a cable sounds different is as useful as saying one car is better than another because it has 50bhp more. There are more things at work than resistance here.

The second part of your sentence I agree completely with, which makes the first (an unsubstantiated assertion) even more puzzling. You can debate the construction of cables until you're blue in the face, only blind, reproducible listening tests will confirm whether or not that construction actually results in audible differences.
All I'm really saying is that different cables have different properties and this gives some physics behind why you may hear a difference. I'm fully aware that it's very difficult to find any literature that shows consistent ABX test results with significant differences heard.

Personally, I have multi-stranded wire from the speaker manufacturers. I bought 12m of it when I bought my speakers in '97 and haven't changed it since - nor am I interested in changing it - the speakers are probably a far bigger determinant on sound quality in my system. But then I have a modern amp (well... 1970's) design that is full of feedback circuits and the speakers have a fairly complex crossover.

If I were running a single ended low power valve amp with no feedback into a speaker with a very simple crossover, I'd expect a more significant effect from the cabling. The differences might still be inaudible though. You really have to look at this from a system perspective, because that's what it is.

That and the fact that there are enough audiophools around that people can make a nice living from them ;)
 
Anyone here have a Sky HD box RA Upgrade
I didn't know one existed, but looking at the specs, you just have to laugh. Unfortunately someone will believe the BS.

If you have a properly working Sky box (i.e. audio and video work without any artefacts) there is nothing you can do to it that will improve the picture quality or audio quality through any digital output. You may get a slight improvement in audio quality if you can reduce the jitter on any S/PDIF port but that's all. You might improve any analogue outputs by cleaning up the power supplies, but not any digital outputs.

Still.. if spending £600+ gives you a warm fuzzy feeling then who am I to argue....
 
Because I'm not using it for that analogy, I'm just saying that to quote resistance as the only measure of whether a cable sounds different is as useful as saying one car is better than another because it has 50bhp more. There are more things at work than resistance here.
On a theoretical level I can easily see how the resistance of a speaker cable, resulting from its length and cross section, could affect the ability of the amp to move the speaker cones. I'm far less convinced that capacitance, inductance and skin effect would have any audible effect except in extreme circumstances.

For the sake of consistency and at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'd take empirical data in the form of blind test results over theory in any case. :)

All I'm really saying is that different cables have different properties and this gives some physics behind why you may hear a difference. I'm fully aware that it's very difficult to find any literature that shows consistent ABX test results with significant differences heard.
Ah, fair enough then, but in my defence that's not quite what you originally said... maybe I'm just being overly pedantic, but "some physics behind why you may hear a difference" is a bit of a step back from "The fundamental fact is that different cables will sound different" (my bold).

That and the fact that there are enough audiophools around that people can make a nice living from them ;)
Oh yes. :)
 
ive hooked up lots of different speaker cables to my left and right speakers and used the balance control to swap between them quickly.

higher up cable does sound better up to a point.

Suprisingly good quality speaker cable can be found attached to dyson hovers, Just cut the flex off. Due to the power of the motor in a dyson the quality of the oxygen free copper is extremely good and produces a sweet sound.

Likewise the 240v 60amp wire they use for electric cookers is also very high quality.
 
maybe I'm just being overly pedantic, but "some physics behind why you may hear a difference" is a bit of a step back from "The fundamental fact is that different cables will sound different" (my bold).
What I meant by that is that if you change the speaker cable and have precise enough measuring equipment, you will be able to detect a difference in the output signal - however small (i.e. the sound will change). That difference must translate into a difference in sound. Whether it is audible or not is another matter, but the human ear/brain is capable of some very sensitive measurements so it is possible.

Does that clarify it?
 
Does that clarify it?
Yes it does, thank you, although we risk getting into a semantic/philosophical argument about whether a difference which is measurable but inaudible actually constitutes a "sound" in the commonly accepted meaning of the word. For the sake of everyone's sanity we probably shouldn't go down that route. :D

ive hooked up lots of different speaker cables to my left and right speakers and used the balance control to swap between them quickly.

higher up cable does sound better up to a point.
Comparative testing really has to be performed blind (and preferably double-blind, so that the person doing the switching can't inadvertently give away any clues), otherwise it's meaningless.

To go back to an earlier post, the human ear coupled with the brain is a very sensitive measuring instrument, but the brain part of the instrument is easily confused by context and suggestion, or preconceptions arising from experience, to the point where it can and frequently does produce false or misleading results. It's a similar situation with the eye/brain combination - the eye by itself is just a bunch of photoreceptors, but there's a thread here (I think it's buried somewhere in the GD vomitorium) full of optical illusions which show how easily the brain can be fooled into believing two identical things are visibly different.

Blind testing is designed to eliminate as far as possible any extraneous factors which might influence the investigators, focusing solely on the subject of investigation itself.
 
On a theoretical level I can easily see how the resistance of a speaker cable, resulting from its length and cross section, could affect the ability of the amp to move the speaker cones. I'm far less convinced that capacitance, inductance and skin effect would have any audible effect except in extreme circumstances.

Rod Elliot Wrote a fantastic article on just that. http://sound.westhost.com/cables-p2.htm#spkr-leads
 
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