Poll: Sunday trading laws

[Castiel]

I think the testbed here is Scotland.

Here we have no Sunday trading laws, so 24 hour Tesco stores are open on 4th Jan and close around Dec 24th.

We manage to cope well without any issues here.

Scotland has specific Laws that give workers the legal right to refuse to work on Sundays however....

As long as working is strictly voluntary then I see no reason not to allow retail stores to open whenever they like. There will always be people who want to work on Sunday, as long as those who do not want to, for family, religious or whatever reasons retain the option not to.

At the same time though, I don't see why they need to open longer than they do anyway.

 

[Glaucus]

Again why should retail staff have extra special laws for them?
It's an out dated law, with no reason.
It's a 24/7 society and some retail workers are still living in the stone age.
A law should apply to everyone or no one.

The whole Sunday is for family argument is silly. There's millions who work all hours.

Don't see the reason for shops to open longer, you don't need a reason. It should be upto the owners.
What about laws being based on something and be applied equally?

 

[_Jimlad_]

im a church going man, but its bonkers that i cant get any food past 4pm from asda!

 

[Castiel]

Again why should retail staff have extra special laws for them?
It's an out dated law, with no reason.
It's a 24/7 society and some retail workers are still living in the stone age.
A law should apply to everyone or no one.

The whole Sunday is for family argument is silly. There's millions who work all hours.

Because the trading laws refer to a specific industry, an industry where it is arguably easier to exploit workers and one whose working demographic has a larger section of it composed of part-time mothers and parents, also it is one that is more likely to open on weekends anyway and therefore arguably has more need of regulation........there is no reason why Sunday working should not remain voluntary, why would you want to remove that from them simply because others do not have the same right. Surely the argument should be to confer that right to everyone, not remove it from those that have it.

Other industries are also welcome to lobby for similar considerations.

As for the 24/7 society claim, so what? does that mean that everyone must be available 24/7 to service the needs of others, especially those that work in industries that do not work outside of the Mon-Fri themselves?

There is no reason why retail cannot open 24/7 and still maintain the voluntary aspect of Sunday working for their staff.....they can hire people to work Sundays specifically or offer shifts and incentives to their current staff who would like to work on the weekends....and no the Sunday for family argument is not silly at all, maybe we should simply do away with weekends altogether, and treat all the days of the week as equal, in all industries, no more Mon to Fri perceived standard at all, remove all idea that weekends are special at all.....treat them as another working day, schools could open everyday or any 5 out of 7......we could have Church services every morning, major sporting, cultural and religious events on any day of the week.....why bother even naming the weekend the weekend....we all live in a 24 hour 7 day a week society after all.......What if I want to go to the bank on Sunday or a 1am in the morning..this is a 24/7 society after all.....I want to see my GP at 3pm on Sunday for a routine checkup, it is a 24/7 society, why cant I see my accountant on a Sunday? 24/7 society and all that...the fact is that it is not a true 24/7 society at all. Some people work when others do not, that doesn't imply that they everyone should be available at all times or even want to. We organise our lives to suit our way of life and removing rights from one section of the workforce simply becasue another section wants them to isn't right....if you have a problem with the unfairness, then you should be advocating an expansion of the law so that everyone has the choice and not only those who working regulated industries like retail or professional occupations that traditionally work Mon-Fri.

So, we do not actually live in a 24/7 society at all, most of us work a five day week, many work standard Mon-Fri with the occasional Sat.....and we enjoy Saturday night socialising and Sunday with our families and so on.....Some do not, some people work Sunday, although even in industries that operate on a Sunday it is rare that their employees work every Sunday. It is often on a rota system with incentives or something like 1 Sunday a month or whatever suits them and their staff......public transport runs reduced services for good reason...it is simply not economically viable to do otherwise...not because the shops are shut on a Sunday because they are not (they are in fact busier as a rule during their opening hours), but because people still obviously live in the stone-age and like spending at least one day of the week together in their shared social groups, be it family or friends and Sunday being treated the way it is facilitates that for most people.

So I have no objection to removing the Sunday Trading Laws for retail, as long as it doesn't negatively impact on the workers in that sector. It simply is not necessary to force people in retail to suddenly start working Sundays if they do not want to, and the "Dont like it , leave" attitude is simply redundant so don't even bother.

 

[Sheff]

Most supermarkets will have staff in to restock, why not treat the situation similar to 24 hour stores? 1 extra person to stand near self serve, everyone else ready to jump on the tills. If the store is extremely busy the loss of productivity would be outweighed by the increase in sales and the only additional cost would be maybe 2 FTE days.

 

[Glaucus]

You can't give that entitlement to others, society could not function.
There is nothing special about retail, there are adequate employment protection in places. Retail staff are not excluded from these rights. So how are they easier to exploite?


No it means companies decide if they want to be 24/7 and if so which departments. It's totaly upto you which jobs you apply for and get. Don't wont to work shifts, get paid considerably less else where.

It has nothing to do with they could still operate a voluntary system. There is no need for the law, as such the law should not exist. In my mind it's as simple as that. Any law which isn't based on something tangible, fair and equal should be removed or tweaked.

 

[MagicBoy]

Because the trading laws refer to a specific industry, an industry where it is arguably easier to exploit workers and one whose working demographic has a larger section of it composed of part-time mothers and parents........there is no reason why Sunday working should not remain voluntary, why would you want to remove that from them simply because others do not have the same right. Surely the argument should be to confer that right to everyone, not remove it from those that have it.

It was only nominally voluntary when I worked in retail in the late 90s. There were only two ways to be allowed to not work Sunday - having worked there since before the 1994 laws came in and therefore have an old contract, or you had to be unioned up. If you were unioned up they made your life as difficult as they could within the rules.

I'm firmly of the belief that Sunday should go back to being the day of rest.

 

[bitslice]

Oh fair enough, I didn't realise people were forced into retail jobs, my bad.

You joke but many people will take any job that is going, if someone wanted to pay me to work 7 days a week I would do it, it would be precious little difference from working in IT anyway.
Maybe consider what other people's lives are like when you feel put out at not being able to buy a potato at 3:00am on a Sunday.

 

[Raymond Lin]

Go to another country like the far east, the weekend is for shopping !

To restrict it to purely Saturday only is bonkers. The argument that you need to "work more" is unsubstantiated, since there will be more shifts, thus it increase employment!

I mean atm it isn't THAT bad, most stores still open from 10-4 but there are still quite a few that doesn't and it is quite annoying at times.

 

[trickycurve]

I don't think many people will feel compelled to buy something on a Sunday afternoon/evening that they couldn't just get on the Saturday before or Monday after. If shops gained increased sales on a Sunday, I bet their sales would decline on Saturdays and Mondays (so it would basically just even out over the three days rather than the Saturday and Monday having the majority of sales).

I agree with the sentiment that retailers should be able to choose themselves when they're open (as long as employees could equally choose not to work on Sundays); I just don't think it would be all that beneficial.

 

[Castiel]

You can't give that entitlement to others, society could not function.

Of course it could....many business would not bother opening on Sunday anyway and those that do could either offer incentives or alternative shift arrangements....there are always people who wish to work or don't mind working on a Sunday.

There is nothing special about retail, there are adequate employment protection in places. Retail staff are not excluded from these rights. So how are they easier to exploit?

There are adequate employment protections in place...they include the protection of voluntary Sunday working. You are advocating removing that right with little benefit to either the employee or the economy.

There is not reason why retail cannot open when it wants to, I have already said this, but their is no reason to remove protections those staff have in place....retail firms can (as they do today) employ people to wok the shifts they require without imposing on those who wish to retain their Sundays for their families or religious observance or whatever.....

No it means companies decide if they want to be 24/7 and if so which departments. It's totaly upto you which jobs you apply for and get. Don't wont to work shifts, get paid considerably less else where.

Indeed, and if people wish to work on Sundays they are free to do so....that doesn't mean we should force those that do not want to...and like you imply Firms can pay incentives to staff if they wish to work. That doesn't mean we have to remove a protection of choice from them.....Supermarkets already hire staff specifically for weekend work, so the changes would be minimal to their business models while retaining the protections of those staff that traditionally haven't worked on Sunday.

It has nothing to do with they could still operate a voluntary system. There is no need for the law, as such the law should not exist. In my mind it's as simple as that. Any law which isn't based on something tangible, fair and equal should be removed or tweaked.

I disagree, I think there is a tangible reason for retaining the voluntary nature of Sunday working in retail, specifically for the reasons I mentioned briefly in my previous post. The retail industry is far more likely to require it's staff to work Sunday than any other and its staff are more likely to be mothers and parents working part time or shifts suited to the upbringing of children or to facilitate a work-family balance, the retail sector is less likely to have a Mon-Fri routine........like any industry with specific concerns it has targeted regulation.....if other industries feel that they have similar concerns then they are free to lobby to get similar regulation.

There is a case for tweaking Sunday Trading laws with regard opening times (let them open when they want), but I think there is no real objective case for removing the voluntary protections of the staff to work on that day other than the spurious argument that it is unfair......if it is unfair extend that part of the regulation into the wider employment protections of everyone, not remove it from the targeted group that are most likely to be effected by it.

 

[Evilpaul]

The argument that you need to "work more" is unsubstantiated, since there will be more shifts, thus it increase employment!

That is based upon the assumption that there is excess money floating around that due to time constraints can not be spent.

Over a week the big supermarket near me is open for a full 144 hours out of 168 hours in the week. If it was allowed to all day, every day, then would the store take in more money? Or would people just choose to shop at a slightly more convenient time, with the end result being that the store takes the same income but incurs higher costs due to being open longer?

If income is spread out over a longer period then stores will try to reduce costs, and one obvious way would be to redistribute the times existing staff work rather than employ more staff.

How can those who work in retail for minimum wage be protected from exploitation?

There is no easy solution and while it may make your life more convenient, how can you measure what you lose in return?

 

[Glaucus]

It really can't function. Certain company's have to have staff at these times. What happens if staff go "nah not doing it this weekend" they're stuffed and vital work does not get done. Such a system is totally unworkable in modern society. Too many vital tasks.

What voluntary work on Sunday law, you mean for a very tiny portion off people for an unkiwenables reason.

Who's forcing anyone to work any shift, don't won't to work certain shifts, it limits your employment chance. Exactly what happens for the majority of the working population allready.

Far more likely that other business. Rubish there are many sectors that 100% require Sunday working with no voluntary laws protecting then.
I struggle to see a DIY shop and a 1001 other shops opening 24/7

 

[MagicBoy]

I'm not sure that buying Cheesecake at 4am on a Sunday counts as vital.

 

[Glaucus]

I'm not sure that buying Cheesecake at 4am on a Sunday counts as vital.

Nope, but castiel was saying rather than get rid of the law apply it to everyone. That simply can't happen. There is again zero reason for special laws on specialist retail sectors.

 

[Castiel]

It really can't function. Certain company's have to have staff at these times. What happens if staff go "nah not doing it this weekend" they're stuffed and vital work does not get done. Such a system is totally unworkable in modern society. Too many vital tasks.

That is not how it works in retail though.....you have the option to not be available for Sunday working or the option to be available for Sunday working.....you must give 3 months notice of any change in your availability.

Supermarkets can hire staff on Sunday specific contracts and they can hire staff to work set shifts including Sundays...

Staff cannot simply say "Nah, I don't feel like it this weekend".

If you are going to criticise something Glaucus at least understand what it is you are being critical of.

What voluntary work on Sunday law?

In England and Wales it is part of the Sunday Trading Act 1994, in Scotland it is the Sunday Working Act 2003...I don't know about NI.

Who's forcing anyone to work any shift, don't won't to work certain shifts, it limits your employment chance. Exactly what happens for the majority of the working population allready.

It is what happens in retail as well, however Staff have the right to not work Sunday if they work a rota'd variable shift pattern, as many in the retail sector do....

Far more likely that other business. Rubish there are many sectors that 100% require Sunday working with no voluntary laws protecting then.

Many other sectors have set shift patterns and any number of other regulations and traditional working practices that mean their staff are less likely to work every Sunday......and like I said, if there are other industries that require the same sort of protections then they should have them....we should not be removing protections from one group simply becasue another doesn't have them, we should endure both groups have the protection.

I struggle to see a DIY shop and a 1001 other shops opening 24/7

If Sunday was simply another trading day for everyone then I suspect they will open to accommodate that.....

However, the point is that the retail sector is more likely to operate a 24/7 business model, have variable short notice, minimum hour rota'd contracts and thus it is not unsurprising that certain protections on the ability of a staff to have the option of at least one regular day off each week is in place.

 

[Castiel]

Nope, but castiel was saying rather than get rid of the law apply it to everyone. That simply can't happen. There is again zero reason for special laws on specialist retail sectors.

No I was saying apply it to the industries where there is a tangible need for protection, the retail sector has that need as they often operate variable short notice shift patterns and this enables staff to have at least one regular day off......something that most of us enjoy without question, either by working specified or flexible hours or by having set rotas and hours....

You simply do not understand the system employed and what the protections are for.

 

[Glaucus]

How did you not get my edit as I knew you would pick up on it.

It's not removing rights as other groups don't. It's removing rights as there's ZERO reason for those rights. It limits companies abilities for no reason. Any law based on nothing should be removed. The fact it's unfair and unequally apply just strengthens that position. There are adequate general employment law to protect workers. Retail are not special. There are many sectors that require you to work Sunday if you won't you simply won't get a job. So the argument that retail has more chance of working Sunday is rubbish. It's just not the case. Compare to other sectors the chance of working shifts 24/7 ate much lower.

 

[Raymond Lin]

I used to live in Hong Kong and it has no such law.

Shops open 7 days a week, some stores open early like 7am (bakery, food places) and some opens late like 10/11am (toy shops) but most stays open until around 9/10pm every single day to cater for people finishing work and still can shop. They basically open the hours that suits them best for their target consumers and maximise profits.

With minimum wages and maximum working hours in the UK, it surely opens up a lot of jobs. Employees are not going to be forced to work more and not get a pay rise, as there is a statutory minimum in place.

I think the only thing that stops it is the culture. We are used to being lazy on Sundays (must be the "even god rests on the 7th day" malarky lol), even though people in retails, restaurants and a lot of service industries works Sunday anyway, they just have another day off instead. The market is more than capable of setting its own balance, other countries can and why can't we?

Side note, going holiday in this country as a foreigner must be well awkward when you want to do stuff on a Sunday.

Even train service are limited.

 

[Castiel]

How did you not get my edit as I knew you would pick up on it.

It's not removing rights as other groups don't. It's removing rights as there's ZERO reason for those rights. It limits companies abilities for no reason. Any law based on nothing should be removed. The fact it's unfair and unequally apply just strengthens that position. There are adequate general employment law to protect workers. Retail are not special. There are many sectors that require you to work Sunday if you won't you simply won't get a job. So the argument that retail has more chance of working Sunday is rubbish. It's just not the case. Compare to other sectors the chance of working shifts 24/7 ate much lower.

Except it is not based on nothing and it has a tangible benefit to those working on variable short notice rotas which are common in the retail sector.

It doesn't limit a business' ability to operate either, as any business model should always take regulation into consideration. In relation to retail they are free to hire people on contracts that require the employee to opt out of the regulation if they so chose, what they cannot do is force staff to work if they do not opt out of the regulation.....so it protects the millions of people currently working in retail who do not work or want to work on Sunday.

Also it is not rubbish that as a sector, retail is more likely to operate at full capacity on a 24/7 basis...there are very few professional occupations that work on short notice variable rotas.

Plenty of other sectors have industry specific regulation and protections relating to working hours.

You can repeat yourself more if you like, but I do not agree that removing the voluntary aspect of Sunday working will benefit the sector to any degree, but it will impact on the working conditions of a fair few retail workers adversely, meaning that they will no longer be guaranteed a regular day off each week, specifically those whose rotas are given to them with minimal notice.

I do agree that the opening hours should be up to the business themselves and that they should decide the viability of that.