scum in Sydney too, - http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/an-open-letter-20120915-25ziq.html
US official killed in embassy raid in Libya
- Thread starter Zbornak
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Absolutely not I'm afraid.
The suggestion is, everyone should know what's too far, so everyone should simply not produce media which is going to result in out breaks of violence.
Alas, there's two issues with this:-
1) People have different ideas of what's too much. So while we're all tip toeing around trying not to upset individuals into violence, some people will make mistakes. Oh! You find this offensive too? Please don't riot! And we can look back over the past few decades and see many cases of this happening.
2) People will go too far on purpose. You can consider the video in discussion in this territory if you wish. So people will produce media that will upset some Muslims and the mindless violence will commence.
The real solution to this mindless violence is for the culture to change. Until it does, insults, intentional or unintentional will occur, and mindless mob violence will commence again.
So the only solution is for the culture supporting and endorsing this mindless fanatical violence to change. Until it does, it will continue to happen over all manner of innocuous things.
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Then we agree. And I apologise if I've been seemingly arguing my corner too strongly.
Possibly, but we're talking about a much broader issue, of seemingly any media (not jsut cartoon) upsetting this violent minority. Unless the entire planet walks on tip toes specifically for this violent minority of one faith, violence will continue to occur. People will accidentally go too far, or individuals will go too far on purpose. Either violence will occur. The only way to stop it is frankly for the culture support, endorsing and promoting this religious violence to move forwards to the 21st century where such action is not acceptable.
Possibly, but it gets odd when applied to Syndey for the current violence...
But why should one group change and not the other?
Is your life really lessened if such films are not made - I am guessing not?
Why does there have to be consensus - it it even possible (I think not).
If we want change - is the onus not on us then to change the way our governments deal with that part of the world - we are the ones who are pushing the hardline fundamentalist movements into power and have been for some time. As wrong as this violence is it is not anywhere near what has happened in Iraq twice in the last 25 years by our hand.
Do socio-economic factors and historical relevance really magically appear when you transport people to Australia?
Will angry young men be angry young men until the end of time - whatever slight provocation? Can this really be solved completely?
Why is Islamic violence only mentioned? What about Myanmar where was the coverage there where was the coverage in the Congo - massive injustices pretty much ignored. What about abortion death threats from Christian fundamentalists.
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I was listening to a radio programme earlier and someone on it made the wise point that people in oppressive and state controlled countries don't realise that films in freeer countries are not all state sponsored and state endorsed. While no excuse I thought this was an interesting and very true point..what to us is a pointless badly made stupid you tube film is seen in a different context in countries with oppressive regimes.
As a result the film seems like US propaganda to some people (or at least they believe it when told) but its clear its pointless low budget filth if you look at it in context.
As a result the film seems like US propaganda to some people (or at least they believe it when told) but its clear its pointless low budget filth if you look at it in context.
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What, countries like Australia?
[TW]Fox;22781528 said:
No, that would be countries where people have been killed and there has been mass looting, burning etc, not silly pseudo riot protests with people throwing bricks who should know better.
I am not saying its an excuse or an explanation for all of it but I think it is well worth remembering that people in some countries are not receiving explanations for things in the same context as we are.
I have been to places where people were actively killing each other for what I considered and still consider to be really stupid reasons and someone has to actually get them going.
While I realise it is the typical line trotted out by racists, in this instance, if your interpretation of your religion makes your views incompatible with living in a liberal democracy then it would perhaps be better to move to a location where your views/religion are shared by a much larger portion of the population. I can understand, to some extent, people in other parts of the world getting upset with the US a a result of this movie - but people actually living in developed nations don't really have much excuse.
Because to stop a religion from being criticised, mocked, insulted or lampooned you need to restrict freedom of expression. However allowing religion to be criticised, mocked, insulted or lampooned does not restrict freedom of religion.
Especially in cases of this video where you have to go spefically out of your way to find it, watch it and then be offended by it.
For three reason:-
1) Because we shouldn't concede to acts of violence. In effect it's actually terrorism - Stop doing what your doing (in your country) which in reality doesn't affect us at all, else we'll destroy and kill.
2) These 'insults' have and will occur by accident.
3) These 'insults' will occur on purpose.
Remember your suggestion of 'us changing' would require things like the Satanic Verses being denied print. And then what? If it's released over the internet privately, charge people? All because of an intolerance fanatical few?
Trying to censor stuff in the middle ground (as I call it) will not work!
Not sure. But it seems a lot of other religions (cultures) have cracked it to a good degree as.
As for "angry young men", they actually seem to be of all ages. But strangely they do all appear to be men
I'll repeat, IMHO, the only way to solve this is for it to be seen as utterly wrong for violence just over words or pictures. You seem by your responses to believe the culture supporting and endorsing this (these angry young men?) cannot move forwards to otherwise educate them?
If that's the case, we'll see the mindless action we've witnessed over the past week repeated over and over... Unfortunately.
But that is not the case though you've added your own interpretation there.
The two positions are:
1) To stop a religion of being mocked you need to restrict freedom of expression. Our laws already detail this quite strictly I would add bar in colleges and universities and the press under certain conditions. The US naturally has freedom of speech as part of its governing philosophy.
2) By allowing a religion to be insulted etc (lets presume Islam) does not freedom of religion. But that is not the argument is it. People are not saying it is stopping them being Muslims they are saying it is insulting its core.
Again you are arguing against a point I have never made. My point - why should Muslims in those countries change their beliefs when we will not change ours. Nowhere do I say we should change our ways - you keep overlooking that and arguing against something I have not said. Once again - we should not change our ways but why should we then expect them to do the same. You keep insinuating I am saying we should change and middle ground should be found. The dictatorial position of West is right etc is behind a lot of this malcontent.
Protest against the insults should never be violent something else I have never said it should be and it appears 99.99% of the world Muslim population seem rather reluctant to be involved. The people who are being violent above and beyond being vocal and demonstrating are men in the main the footage quite clearly indicates that - not totally but generally. In the same way the rioting in this country last year was made up from the same demographic with quite a few oddities thrown in.
I've made my position abundantly clear. Such people will not change the root causes are laid on a foundation of ignorance, poor education, discontent and disenfranchised groups, poverty, etc. That malcontent is then focused and manipulated intentionally or not through mechanisms such as religion (sectarianism, fundamentalism), perceived rights eg abortion + animal rights, etc. That has been a pattern though history.
Well that goes both way - you can't respect people who chop hands off, stone people whilst their elite is whoring it in Monaco and you can't respect people who slaughter a few million people to keep Haliburton profit margins tidy.
Well then, if I understand your point (not sure if I do), we are destined to repeat this cycle of violence over and over. A book or cartoon or video is released in the West. Muslims a thousand miles away are told about said media, and violence results probably with most of them knowing nothing more about it than hearsay, yet alone actually having seen/watched it.
I mentioned before the only way I can see this cycle stopping is for the culture of violent reaction (amongst the more fanatical) to be broken and for this faith/culture to become more tolerant as per other religions/cultures to media and other peoples opinions.
Furthermore, I asked what in this religion/culture instills the desire for violence and indeed supports and propagates it? Because that is essentially what needs to change. It's intriguing to see broadcasts of prominent Muslim leaders seemingly promoting violence amongst their followers where indeed they should be the ones condemning it. Maybe this is one of the areas that needs attention urgently.
EDIT:-
Very topically, here's an interesting BBC interview/article about Salman Rushdie - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-19601824
It implies the 'terrorism' we're witnessing (due to the video in question), and other such violence in the past, has worked over the years. ie: This religious extremism is working in its goal!
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Just reading wiki about Salman Rushdie, i found this deeply disturbing, Someone who rules an entire country requesting for him to be killed over a book.
"The outrage among some Muslims resulted in a fatwā calling for Rushdie's death issued by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the Supreme Leader of Iran, on 14 February 1989."
"the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, Supreme Leader of Iran and a Shi'a Muslim scholar, issued a fatwa calling on all good Muslims to kill Rushdie and his publishers, or to point him out to those who can kill him if they cannot themselves"
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Someone has to do it 
Islam shares a lot with Nazism
Islam shares a lot with Nazism
Indeed - well said. I was listening to a great report on the radio (NPR over here in the US) and they were interviewing people watching the rioters. They asked them if they were here to support them and they were saying "NO - they're flipping idiots and are giving us all a bad name. We agree with protesting, but this is just stupid"....or words to that effect. As usual though, Fox News makes out like the entire Middle East is ready to storm Washington.