US official killed in embassy raid in Libya

[Xordium]

Well then, if I understand your point (not sure if I do), we are destined to repeat this cycle of violence over and over. A book or cartoon or video is released in the West. Muslims a thousand miles away are told about said media, and violence results probably with most of them knowing nothing more about it than hearsay, yet alone actually having seen/watched it.

Whilst we interfere in their areas so strongly and the memory of us doing so remains then most likely and there is no reason for them to change then what else is there.

I mentioned before the only way I can see this cycle stopping is for the culture of violent reaction (amongst the more fanatical) to be broken and for this faith/culture to become more tolerant as per other religions/cultures to media and other peoples opinions.

What mechanism for change is there? What stimulus? You are talking about ideals with no method for real-world implementation. Carrot and stick we've used one not the other.

Furthermore, I asked what in this religion/culture instills the desire for violence and indeed supports and propagates it? Because that is essentially what needs to change. It's intriguing to see broadcasts of prominent Muslim leaders seemingly promoting violence amongst their followers where indeed they should be the ones condemning it. Maybe this is one of the areas that needs attention urgently.

Again you ignore the atrocities committed by Christians, the extremist actions by Christians, the fact that in that part of the world the government often uses the mob as a tool, in the same way the Jewish state uses its troops to facilitate its concentration camps (well that's what they are). It's just Muslims to you and never anyone else.

From their perspective why should it change? Why do you think they give a flying **** about what we think and our value system? I don't know how you can not get that part. Do you think the clerics sit down and say "Oh noes we've upset NeilFawcett let's back off on the use of IEDs and molotovs chaps". It's a valid method of control for them and the way they do things to think that the whole world is going to be some hunky-dory democracy is rather naive. Their actions are completely wrong by our ethical assessments in the same way our actions are to them. You consistently seem to think that everyone thinks like us - they don't.

 

[NeilF]

Whilst we interfere in their areas so strongly and the memory of us doing so remains then most likely and there is no reason for them to change then what else is there.



What mechanism for change is there? What stimulus? You are talking about ideals with no method for real-world implementation. Carrot and stick we've used one not the other.



Again you ignore the atrocities committed by Christians, the extremist actions by Christians, the fact that in that part of the world the government often uses the mob as a tool, in the same way the Jewish state uses its troops to facilitate its concentration camps (well that's what they are). It's just Muslims to you and never anyone else.

From their perspective why should it change? Why do you think they give a flying **** about what we think and our value system? I don't know how you can not get that part. Do you think the clerics sit down and say "Oh noes we've upset NeilFawcett let's back off on the use of IEDs and molotovs chaps". It's a valid method of control for them and the way they do things to think that the whole world is going to be some hunky-dory democracy is rather naive. Their actions are completely wrong by our ethical assessments in the same way our actions are to them. You consistently seem to think that everyone thinks like us - they don't.

Of course there is history involved. Alas we move on (or should)... Strangely we manage to get on with the Germans, and we have quite recent history with them...

I assume you are not attempting to justify violence in any way, only rationalise it, by your comment, "Their actions are completely wrong by our ethical assessments in the same way our actions are to them. You consistently seem to think that everyone thinks like us - they don't."

I realise they don't think like us... Hence me repeating how they need to change (see below). Remember we are not the ones causing death and destruction.


So, out of interest do you agree or disagree with my summary? That the only way to stop this cycle of violence is for the endorsement and support of violence within the culture/religion in question to be removed? Can you see any other way of it truly stopping? Can you see the rest of the world bending over backwards enough to appease every possible avenue of offense? ie: Can you imagine no accidental insults, or purposefully producing cartoons or other media designed to offend?

Such media has happened in the past - for one reason or another - and it will continue to manifest itself in the future. Until the ethics within the culture/religion at question stop endorsing and promoting violence, it will continue to happen. And I can see no other viable course of action that will stop it.

Every finger of blame in the planet should point squarely at every act of this sort of violence and call it unnacceptable. And this is even more the case for leaders or officials supporting violence. We're in the 21st century. Time for some people to play catch up.

 

[Muzza1875]

.

Every finger of blame in the planet should point squarely at every act of this sort of violence and call it unnacceptable. And this is even more the case for leaders or officials supporting violence. We're in the 21st century. Time for some people to play catch up.

 

[Xordium]

I realise they don't think like us... Hence me repeating how they need to change (see below). Remember we are not the ones causing death and destruction.

Really we don't cause death and destruction are you willingly overlooking drone strikes, Afghanistan, Iraq twice, propping up Saddam in the first place, giving AQ the funds to get started and the training to succeed, propping up Israel, propping up the Sauds, etc etc ...

So, out of interest do you agree or disagree with my summary? That the only way to stop this cycle of violence is for the endorsement and support of violence within the culture/religion in question to be removed? Can you see any other way of it truly stopping? Can you see the rest of the world bending over backwards enough to appease every possible avenue of offense? ie: Can you imagine no accidental insults, or purposefully producing cartoons or other media designed to offend?

Such media has happened in the past - for one reason or another - and it will continue to manifest itself in the future. Until the ethics within the culture/religion at question stop endorsing and promoting violence, it will continue to happen. And I can see no other viable course of action that will stop it.

Every finger of blame in the planet should point squarely at every act of this sort of violence and call it unnacceptable. And this is even more the case for leaders or officials supporting violence. We're in the 21st century. Time for some people to play catch up.

Again you miss the point of course the only way the violence will stop is if the endorsement is removed in those regions. The point is why should they remove the endorsement it is serving a purpose. Just not one we agree with. If they no longer feel the need to use such tactics then yes maybe just maybe it will lessen but whilst we interfere that will not happen. And we won't stop interfering because it suits our purpose to interfere. Maybe we would if the sum total harm outweighed the benefit but at the moment it does not. More Western people probably died from RTA's before breakfast was even started today than in all the troubled regions in that part of the world all year. It is what the US military would call acceptable collateral damage.

Once again I see nothing wrong with how we did do things. We want the resources they have. We should prop up whoever will deal with us over there who will control those resources and ensure our access to them. If they commit god knows what human rights issues along the way then we should protest and say you really shouldn't do that and then sell the very mechanisms and equipment to do what they want to. Trying to spread democracy and our ethical code to the rest of the world has never really worked. Like you have noted I don't endorse their actions but I do wholly believe that the first step in getting what you want and defeating enemies etc is knowing what they want and what makes them tick. Just because I originate from over that area does not mean I am sympathetic I'd be a lot more hardline and militaristic than most of you lot but at heart I do think isolationist policies are more desirable and economically viable and our expansionist policies should have been chucked out with the empire. Our corporate interests have the capacity to look after themselves - they always have.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Really we don't cause death and destruction are you willingly overlooking drone strikes, Afghanistan, Iraq twice, propping up Saddam in the first place, giving AQ the funds to get started and the training to succeed, propping up Israel, propping up the Sauds, etc etc ...

Could you remind me again how the guy who owned the KFC that was torched did any of that?

 

[Xordium]

Could you remind me again how the guy who owned the KFC that was torched did any of that?

I can't which was why that point was nothing to do with that incident and in answer to something else. However, if you want to quote stuff out of context knock yourself out.

 

[[TW]Fox]

I thought this thread was about the violent protests, has it moved on?

 

[Xordium]

I thought this thread was about the violent protests, has it moved on?

No, the thread is still about that but allow me to give you a little clue. When someone makes a comment in direct answer to someone else's post by actually quoting the thing they are replying to then it is usually a good idea to read that for context. Just a hint for you there.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Fair enough, I apologise

 

[Xordium]

Fair enough, I apologise

No need at all - I wouldn't read my waffle either. It could do with being a great deal more concise to convey the points I am trying to make.

 

[NeilF]

Might all kick off again now it seems...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19646748
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/09/19/french-magazine-publishes-naked-prophet-mohammed-cartoons/

Security is being increased at France's interests abroad after a French satirical magazine published obscene cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad.

French embassies, consulates, cultural centres and international French schools in some 20 countries will be closed on Friday as a precaution.

As I've said before, no matter how questionable this or other cases are, media questioning or mocking (insulting?) religious figures will appear be it by accident or choice. It's the culture of violence that needs to be addressed and its endorsement prevented. Until then it will happen over and over again with innocent people being injured and killed for no logical reason.

 

[dowie]

Might all kick off again now it seems...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19646748
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/09/19/french-magazine-publishes-naked-prophet-mohammed-cartoons/

tbh... that journalist needs a slap - yes the various extremists in different Islamic countries who get worked up into a frenzy over this sort of thing are being ridiculous but deliberately provoking them is also pretty dumb.

We've already seen the danish cartoons, the Koran burning priest in the US and the resulting deaths of UN workers, then the laughably bad movie about mohammed and the resulting attacks on US interests - yet this scrawny little Frenchman thinks its ok to then do a copy cat - 'oh look at me I can offend the prophet too' and try to stir up more trouble. I'm sure the families of french diplomats and service personnel are really happy that their loved ones are now in even more danger abroad directly as a result of some attention seeking **** journalist jumping on a band wagon.

 

[NeilF]

tbh... that journalist needs a slap - yes the various extremists in different Islamic countries who get worked up into a frenzy over this sort of thing are being ridiculous but deliberately provoking them is also pretty dumb.

We've already seen the danish cartoons, the Koran burning priest in the US and the resulting deaths of UN workers, then the laughably bad movie about mohammed and the resulting attacks on US interests - yet this scrawny little Frenchman thinks its ok to then do a copy cat - 'oh look at me I can offend the prophet too' and try to stir up more trouble. I'm sure the families of french diplomats and service personnel are really happy that their loved ones are now in even more danger abroad directly as a result of some attention seeking **** journalist jumping on a band wagon.

I'm on the fence myself - I understand exactly what you're saying, but we're once again talking about a sheet of paper with a cartoon drawing on it, and people deciding to destroy and kill innocents over it.

Yes it's a very ill-timed move, but should this kind of terrorism be seen to work? Tricky!

 

[ChrisJSY]

All I can think of is this sub-set of a religion taking a violent approach is exactly the kind of attitude you'd expect from a child or a mouthy little **** of a teen.
They want it their way, they won't accept it any other way, if it isn't right they'll kick up a mess and even fight over it.

So sad They really need to mature and by historical rates, it's going to take hundreds of years.

 

[:(Rhodri:)]

I'm on the fence myself - I understand exactly what you're saying, but we're once again talking about a sheet of paper with a cartoon drawing on it, and people deciding to destroy and kill innocents over it.

Yes it's a very ill-timed move, but should this kind of terrorism be seen to work? Tricky!

All other religions can be satirised without violent reaction from their followers, it's a ridiculous situation to be in when the press are scared to publish a cartoon for fear of serious reprisals.

Without people willing to take these risks however there will never be any change. We can only hope that one day extremist Muslims will have evolved out of their middle-age beliefs.

 

[dowie]

All other religions can be satirised without violent reaction from their followers, it's a ridiculous situation to be in when the press are scared to publish a cartoon for fear of serious reprisals.

Without people willing to take these risks however there will never be any change. We can only hope that one day extremist Muslims will have evolved out of their middle-age beliefs.

Yes it is ridiculous and it will take time for them to shake off some of their extremist beliefs. Deliberately provoking them though isn't in anyway constructive - its just attention seeking on the part that french journalist.

 

[NeilF]

its just attention seeking on the part that french journalist.

Quite possibly... But maybe it's an incredibly astute and relevant cartoon?

 

[dave_beast]

If someone/some people are so easily "wound up" then there will always be folks who bait them to get a reaction. Unfortunately the current situation is a vicious circle, the more they protest/riot/kill, the more the trolling will continue.

 

[setter]

Just read this about the attack. on the us consulate.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...icial-says-strike-in-libya-was-terror-attack/

States that a former guantanamo bay inmate was involved in the attack. Now i dont know how credible fox news is. But it seems to be that every terrorist attack seems to be credited to al queada in western news. Quite often when the terrorists involved belong to a totally different islamic group with different ideals to al queada. A bit like the ira and uda here in northern ireland being lumped together in the media. To me it seems like a bit of media hype, put every terrorist attack onto an easily identified enemy in the public eye, regardless of their motives and ideals.

 

[Gackt]

Either the backwater Islamic nations need to accept the fact that the West treasures freedom of expression and will continue to mock, ridicule and satirise other cultures as well as it's own, or they need to be dealt with in some fashion. It is unacceptable that we have people, unrelated, and related, to these expressions, however pathetic they may be, being killed, or tortured, or living in fear of their lives.

I'm thinking the Iron Curtain 2.0, instead this time it'll actually be a real curtain.

If these 'people' can't handle a crap youtube film, then I highly doubt their ability to function as part of a global society. Perhaps it's time we removed our presence from their countries and let them stew in their own filth.