Fat tax

[aln]

This pretty much sums it up. It's disgusting when people blame obesity on a lack of education or availability of healthy food. Everything required is out there. Lots of people these days just like to blame their problems on someone else

I think it's more the effort you need put into it. Most people when working all day don't really want to spend their free time studying nutrition in order to make good choices on what to eat. Add in the fact that people with a bad diet become fatigued and lethargic and thus have even less desire to spend any effort.

Traditionally we also had family units so it was just a case of educating the wife and mothers who had an abundance of free time to think about it in the first place. But now most families require both adults working full time in order to get a house, etc.

You also have the suppliers fighting against this. The packaging on some products in the supermarket has Green, Amber and Red colours which are supposed to tell you how good they are for you. I can't remember what its called but it's on some of your food. Instead of mandating a similar system be on all foods, we're happy with confusing recommended daily allowance figures based on common portions which are largely unrealistic and are different between similar products.

You have crap like portion sizes when going to a pub for a meal. If you're an active person, you can maybe eat a 3 course meal from my typical pub experience. If you aren't, you'll be fat and you shouldn't eat 3 over flowing plates. Of course the food industry likes to shovel big portions out because it'll make you feel better about the cost of the meal, but it's really not healthy for large swaths of the office working public.

Finally we have taste. I try to buy quality products but honestly I don't know enough about what I'm eating to really know the difference. What I know is we have obvious health brands that are frankly often disgusting and then other brands which are often cheap but tasty. I don't believe food has to be this way, but the way capitalism works is if you buy a premium products it's likely to just be the same deal in nicer packaging, gouging you for being stupid and a lot of people won't know any better.

It doesn't need to be that way and I don't think taxing is the issue. For me its really a **** take that we don't have a pretty much fool proof system where you know exactly what is in your food and the people who were selling horse meat as beef should be prosecuted, not because I have a problem with eating horse, but because lies with food should pretty much be a no go area. Following that we need to sort out the RDA stuff so its less confusing. Possibly mandate that supermarkets need to organize their produces into sections containing bad food and good food. I don't really know the answer, but I really don't think it's lets make people pay more to eat.

 

[smelly_legend]

I don't drink fizzy juice so they can tax away.

 

[fez]

Just another tax, i.e. just another way to screw more money out of people and make us poorer than ever. Will anyone stop drinking fizzy drinks? Of course not, any more than we stop driving our cars even though they're being taxed out of existence.

How is it screwing money out of people. When I get taxed at the end of the year I don't have a choice.

The government need to start treating people like the idiots they are. Everyone thinks that anything they want is a "basic right" and something they deserve.

Owning and running a car is something I don't do because its really expensive and for the amount I would use it, doesn't make sense. I wouldn't complain about not having enough money if I did have a car though because that was my choice.

Until every man and his dog realises that they are not so special and that they are entitled to very little from the state we will be in a better position.

If people want to become overweight, unhealthy wrecks who don't exercise, screw em. You either make unhealthy food expensive enough to compensate for the extra health costs or you tell them that they are on their own.

 

[MooMoo444]

I don't drink fizzy juice so they can tax away.

Ah, the old "it doesn't affect me, so /care" approach.

If the door is opened to them taxing one foodgroup, then it's closer to opening for all of them.

 

[smelly_legend]

Ah, the old "it doesn't affect me, so /care" approach.

If the door is opened to them taxing one foodgroup, then it's closer to opening for all of them.

I'm just trolling - I got a bite

TBH - I'm pretty much in the boat where I'm quite indifferent to anything being taxed, as long as my tax money is being used on something beneficial. For example, the Edinburgh Trams - what a monumental waste of money.

 

[Marky]

What about us Skinny Minnies? I think we should get some sort of Sweetie Tax Rebate...

 

[R.P.L]

I think it's more the effort you need put into it. Most people when working all day don't really want to spend their free time studying nutrition in order to make good choices on what to eat. Add in the fact that people with a bad diet become fatigued and lethargic and thus have even less desire to spend any effort.

Traditionally we also had family units so it was just a case of educating the wife and mothers who had an abundance of free time to think about it in the first place. But now most families require both adults working full time in order to get a house, etc.

You also have the suppliers fighting against this. The packaging on some products in the supermarket has Green, Amber and Red colours which are supposed to tell you how good they are for you. I can't remember what its called but it's on some of your food. Instead of mandating a similar system be on all foods, we're happy with confusing recommended daily allowance figures based on common portions which are largely unrealistic and are different between similar products.

You have crap like portion sizes when going to a pub for a meal. If you're an active person, you can maybe eat a 3 course meal from my typical pub experience. If you aren't, you'll be fat and you shouldn't eat 3 over flowing plates. Of course the food industry likes to shovel big portions out because it'll make you feel better about the cost of the meal, but it's really not healthy for large swaths of the office working public.

Finally we have taste. I try to buy quality products but honestly I don't know enough about what I'm eating to really know the difference. What I know is we have obvious health brands that are frankly often disgusting and then other brands which are often cheap but tasty. I don't believe food has to be this way, but the way capitalism works is if you buy a premium products it's likely to just be the same deal in nicer packaging, gouging you for being stupid and a lot of people won't know any better.

It doesn't need to be that way and I don't think taxing is the issue. For me its really a **** take that we don't have a pretty much fool proof system where you know exactly what is in your food and the people who were selling horse meat as beef should be prosecuted, not because I have a problem with eating horse, but because lies with food should pretty much be a no go area. Following that we need to sort out the RDA stuff so its less confusing. Possibly mandate that supermarkets need to organize their produces into sections containing bad food and good food. I don't really know the answer, but I really don't think it's lets make people pay more to eat.

I think we're basically in agreement - my only problem really lies with people who can't accept that what they eat is their responsibility. If one eats crap and knows it and can't be bothered to change - fair enough I guess, but don't blame lack of education or whatever. Same with exercise as I mentioned above - it's no secret that plenty of exercise is healthy, but lots of people choose to ignore that fact.
Regarding knowing exactly what goes into prepared food - I agree that with processed meat that can be a problem as producers no doubt put plenty of cheap rubbish through a mincer to save money (although the horsemeat issue is a seperate problem). I'm planning to buy a meat grinder soon so I don't have to guess what is in my burgers and sausages.

 

[Castiel]

They don't sell 100% grass fed. Grass reared is not the same as 100%, but it does fool most people.

I beg to differ, my local Waitrose sell local grass reared (grass fed if you prefer) beef, sourced directly from Waitrose owned herds. They sell both 100% grass fed and their normal range which is guaranteed to be 75% grass fed during the winter months and 100% in the summer, without antibiotics, hormones, growth promoters or any other of the common things even local farms use in rearing their livestock..this applies even their essential range.

Such a good supply chain they can't even get the right meat. That doesn't just apply to the horse, there's multiple **** ups. From pork in beef etc.

Not in their fresh cuts of meat however, and Waitrose own the supplier for most their fresh meat. The Estate is local to me.

Besides, butchers and farm shops are not immune to this either, in fact some of them are the suppliers who are responsible in some cases, from adding hormones and illegal feeds, to circumventing regulations and legislation to bypass complex and expensive compliance.

You have just guessed on suppliers.

No I did not, for starters you gave the links to cheaper meat, not me. And the Estate that supplies my local supermarket with Chicken and Meat is right on my doorstep...I have visited it numerous times.

I use small farms so I know where it's from.

Have you visited these farms, can you be 100% sure that the farms are self supplying, are you 100% sure that the farm practices are up to scratch, can you guarantee they are not using battery techniques, flash freezing and defrosting prior to sale, and so on?

I can, because I go to the places where the produce is reared, I don't rely on the claims of people on the Internet.

I didnt say I buy from muscle food. Two different discussions, you said you can't buy water, sugar, slat free for that price. Well you can. Then there's the discussion about how much you can tell by look and feel alone, and that really isn't a lot at all.

I'm not having two different discussions, you might be. You gave those examples (which as I demonstrated were still more expensive than buying alternatives) I said I would rather not buy from the Internet as I like to see what I am buying. I don't know what argument you are having, but that is what I am talking about.

I buy from places like this
http://shop.fordhallfarm.com/

Do you see the cuts of meat before you buy, do you get to choose which you want, how you would like it cut, can you verify the quality prior to purchase? Or is it preselected and packed and sent out to you?

I get to choose, because I visit the places I buy from, I choose what I want to buy, I don't have it chosen for me, and it cost either the same or is cheaper.

I would buy from a farm shop online, but only after visiting it and seeing the quality first, and besides, this goes against your claim that you can buy cheaper and safer on the Internet. The prices are higher if you go to places such as you have given now.

Supermarkets just won't have the awnsers the supply chain is to long and complex.

There you are wrong, the Waitrose supply chain for fresh meat and poultry is direct from Estate to Store....no more complex or lengthy than the average farm shop.

We are taliking about fresh meat and poultry here, not processed pre packed foods, and the supply chain of fresh meat and poultry is highly regulated and traceable, particularly with the supermarkets as the smaller farm producer has not the same level of statutory regulation.

 

[Skillmister]

Not going to bother reading the thread, i'm sure it will be full of the usual bs circular arguments.

But why should i have to pay more for nice sugary foods just because fatties cant control themselves?

 

[diamount]

Might as well tax stupid people.

 

[Glaucus]

snip

You are just making up crap again. Lets see what waitrose say. You really showed me how you can see everything from touch and look. Or just by reading.

Waitrose British Beef Fillet Steak.

Waitrose British beef comes from prime cattle, from both native and continental breeds, that are fed a healthy grass and cereal-based diet.

Oh look fallen for marketing speel.

I can't chose the cut I want at local shops, they don't supply stuff I want. The quality of rearing, feed, bread is far more important than choosing individual cut. Way are you choosing when you buy an individual cut? How can you even suggest choosing an individual cut is more important than those things.
That wasn't your initial point anyway, your initial point is still wrong. You cannot tell much from looking and feeling it. Looking and feeling it, is not going to tell me what it's eaten or how it's raised. For that I have to trust the supplier. I trust my sources a lot more than a complex chain that deals in millions of animals a year.
Have you been to the farm you chicken was raised on? No, silly argument.

There's two discussions. The cheap meat places weren't about overall health. You said you can not get chicken that isn't pumped full of crap for £5 a kilo. That is false, as those linked showed. You going to try and say they are worse quality than supermarket chicken?

I know what the cost is for my meat thanks.
Again your mistaking my requirements for a more general approach. Even the free range chicken I get as i said is a mere 5p more a qaurter than tescos (normal not value)

 

[Freefaller]

MY views... in fact I posted similar elsewhere.

This country has no idea behind what constitutes good healthy eating (this forum excluded as there are a lot of EXTREMELY talented cooks and people who seem to follow a good lifestyle).

I think it's as a habit/hangover from the war years, where processed and refined foods were the staple for people and cheap to manufacture, as such people have become used to consuming poor quality foods - and hence why the UK got tarnished with "**** cuisine". However, it is turning around now, but still there is too much focus on cheap food and not enough on promoting healthy living/food - as such out obesity has risen, as has our diabetes and people keep buying the crap. Cuts of meat/fish, and fresh veg are still more expensive than they should be, and deals and cheap mass production of ready meals and "burgers" (I say that as it's an easy way of conveying my point) appeal because people have become addicted to the salt content, and additives and flavourings that they mix in with the food.

They also want an easy way out without putting any effort in - well, you have to work for it too. Losing weight and being healthy is mainly down to diet, but activity is absolutely critical to health, and acts as a catalyst. Also a lot of people don't want to exercise, which is fine, but diet is still something that can be addressed. As a result of this poor palette, people eat progressively worse, forgoing fruit, for a back of crisps, steamed fish for scampi and chips and so on,. Of course the occasional "let your hair down" eat what you want is absolutely not an issue, it's just the continuous ill thought out meals and food choices that people take.

As such, the media skew on healthy eating and health foods has put the proverbial heebie jeebies up people - remember the whole eggs fiasco? How they were purported to be bad for you, but actually they realised they weren't? (Well... some of us knew they weren't and kept eating them regardless ). How about the food/cholesterol thing, and how eating cholesterol will kill you? Ah, wait, no, we got that wrong too, our bodies don't generally absorb dietary cholesterol, but produces it's own if it's short of/modifies if too much of.... (of course, this is down to a healthy lifestyle, which if not followed mitigates that fact)....

And so on... All these old wives tales are where we are stuck in the past - so a lot of people cannot let go that things like MCTs and fats like this actually generate fat loss - people hear, "fat" and ergo reach for cereals, and low fat yogourts thinking it will save them. It's pretty shameful really.

I think there should be a drive promoting healthier eating, forgoing easy meals, and more focus, perhaps in school?, on how to cook and choosing the right ingredients.

You can cook healthily with good cuts of meat, and decent veg for very little money - you have to use some imagination. Sure, we're all too busy... yet, we're on here, where we could be learning how to cook better? However, are we too busy to look after our health? Personally, I don't think we should be, we cannot afford NOT to look after our health.

I don't listen to the news/government funded research of food and nutrition, as I feel I know enough about how my body works, and what foods I eat to gauge whether or not I'm on the right track. However, for most people, who are not interested or as fastidious on the subject as me and other gym rats, or aren't willing to pay a bit more for food, there should be more help and more incentive to eat more cleanly. Whether that means pricing heavily processed/refined foods more, I don't know - but ultimately, look at smoking, it's prohibitively priced (IMO) yet people still do it. If people want to eat poor quality foods that their palettes have adjusted to, they will. Until they make it easier for people to have access to a healthier diet I doubt we'll see much improvement.

I dearly miss having the numerous butchers and green grocers to choose from - I actually do not enjoy buy meat and veg from the supermarket - it's just the way our overpopulated country has to supply to itself to cope with demand, which I guess is also the last point I wanted to make, there is less demand for better quality, 0 refined/processed food. Or if there is, it's generally expensive, or too expensive for the majority of the population.

Either way I do not feel sorry for people who let themselves get fat. They do not become like that over night, and they have the power to change - okay, I accept there are medical conditions, but nonetheless, that is even more of a reason to be even more savvy about dietary choices. Perhaps people need to start taking responsibility for their actions, and if they do not purchase the cheap processed foods, the manufacturers will change to suit the customer demand?

 

[Castiel]

You are just making up crap again. Lets see what waitrose say. You really showed me how you can see everything from touch and look. Or just by reading.

No I am not. And that is rather ironic as you are going solely on what you read on the Internet, whereas I am going by what I actually buy and where I buy if from.

I didn't say you could see everything either, you seem determined to be right, even though it is pretty obvious that being able to see and select the cuts of meat you want, and having the expertise and knowledge of the butcher right in front of you to discuss any given piece of meat is going to be superior to relying on claims made on the Internet.

Oh look fallen for marketing speel.

That belies your claim you can't email a supermarket however doesn't it...and it also doesn't prove that they do not stock 100% grass reared beef either as they supply a wide range of fresh produce depending on the locality.

The point is I don't rely on anything, I trust my own judgement and if a supplier turns out to be less than forthcoming or cannot answer my questions then I simply do not buy the product. If I bought on the Internet, I would not have that choice, as I would have to buy the product and trust the description is accurate.

I can't chose the cut I want at local shops, they don't supply stuff I want.

I can, in Tesco, Waitrose and in any number of local butchers. I can even source produce that is not widely available such as Bison and the more exotic meats...both in Pritchards and Waitrose, who are both with a mile.

The quality of rearing, feed, bread is far more important than choosing individual cut. Way are you choosing when you buy an individual cut? How can you even suggest choosing an individual cut is more important than those things.

I didn't suggest that, you are assuming. I said it is a reason why I do not buy blind on the Internet...and you can just as easily get the information you want from a local butcher, farm shop or supermarket as you can on the Internet....with the added point that you can select the product personally.

That wasn't your initial point anyway, your initial point is still wrong. You cannot tell much from looking and feeling it. Looking and feeling it, is not going to tell me what it's eaten or how it's raised.

I have already explained that you can to some degree, and again, it isn't a binary choice, it is simply part of the process. You also ask the retailer and trust your experience.

For that I have to trust the supplier. I trust my sources a lot more than a complex chain that deals in millions of animals a year.
Have you been to the farm you chicken was raised on? No, silly argument.

Again I have explained that the chains with regard to fresh meat and poultry is no complex at all.

And in answer to your question, yes I have visited the farm where the chicken I it comes from, and the beef for that matter....more than once.

There's two discussions. The cheap meat places weren't about overall health. You said you can not get chicken that isn't pumped full of crap for £5 a kilo. That is false, as those linked showed. You going to try and say they are worse quality than supermarket chicken?

Those linked didn't actually show that however....you have no way to authenticate the quality of the product in those links.

I know what the cost is for my meat thanks.
Again your mistaking my requirements for a more general approach. Even the free range chicken I get as i said is a mere 5p more a qaurter than tescos (normal not value)

However I was referring not to the difference between chicken breast prices, but the difference between buying 4 fresh chicken breasts and buying processed chicken portions....

You seem to be getting yourself all confused over what is actually under discussion.

 

[=XDC=FluphyBunny]

Why should I pay more for a bar of chocolate just because some fat git has no will power?

Its nothing to do with the fatties, it has everything to do with the government wanting more of our money

 

[Glaucus]

So didnt email them, it's on their website.
What makes the butcher claim any more right than the Internet claim?
You are simply wrong, you can not tell most of this from touching looking. Local stores don't sell what you thought they did.
No authenticity again. Wow. So a butcher somehow has more authenticity? Really this is a stupid argument and I have no idea why you are peddling it.
Let all throw are arms up and go kill, butcher and eat our own meat. It's the only way to be sure.

The china is complex.
So you sited a waitrose farm, then purchased meat from taht farm from a shop?
Despite them having many farms.
Yes it will be grain fed. I can almost guarantee they are grass fed in the summer and in the winter locked up and grain fed. The slaughter age varys, but you won't get one at the ege of 6months slaughtered. It will have done at least one winter and more like two-three winters. Inside and on grain.
So yes you are wrong, you said waitrose did 100% grass fed, they don't. It's as simple as that.

 

[fez]

Why should I pay more for a bar of chocolate just because some fat git has no will power?

Its nothing to do with the fatties, it has everything to do with the government wanting more of our money

It has everything to do with the fatties. What is the alternative. Explain to people that exercise and diet is mega important and hope that this secret ancient wisdom changes them.

People know what they should do, they simply choose not to because there are very little in the way of consequences. You get ill because of your weight and you are treated. You gain enough weight and you don't even have to worry about losing it because you will get a gastric band.

Its easier to buy ready meals and feed your screaming kids the chocolate that they want. Whenever I listen to one of the retarded parents on t.v explaining that their kid doesn't like healthy food I want to wring their neck.

The government is trying to do what little it can to nudge people in the right direction. Any more and it will just blow up in their faces. The past 25 years of government has lead us to a place where people take no responsibility for their actions for the most part.

 

[MrMoonX]

castiel has a point though, can you prove 100% that the chicken you buy from whatever.com is actually pure chicken?

no you cant, you have to trust the butcher etc. Just like everyone trusted tesco et al, to say their lasagne was beef, when it was horse.

To Fez above, Children will eat what they are given and what their parents introduce them to, if the parents are morons and feed them rubbish they will crave rubbish. My 18 month old, has never had McDonald's, Juice, meat or dairy, does he want chocolate or a burger? no because he has never had it and doesn't know any different. The issue is that the society has moved away from healthy home prepared meals to quick fast fixes, until parents change its just one generation destroying the next.

 

[Castiel]

So didnt email them, it's on their website.

Again, the information is readily available and no more difficult to obtain than the suppliers you mentioned, (it is also what was given to someone who emailed them on another forum) also it is important to mention that if you actually visit the stores and their butchers and fresh food managers they will have all this and more information about their specific product ranges, you will also see the products for yourself and have the ability to see the environment in which the product is stored. If you also follow the few simple points I raised then you will have even more ability to select quality products at reasonable prices.

What makes the butcher claim any more right than the Internet claim?

The point is that the butcher's claims are easily verified, as most of there produce is locally sourced and they have a reputation, as well as the product is right there in front of you to inspect prior to you buying it. On the internet anyone can claim pretty much anything and you will never know the quality of the product until after you have bought it....also it is harder for a butcher to get his produce from multiple suppliers and will have a local reputation which will go some way to reassure their customer base. Also if the meat is suspect, it is simply a matter of returning to the store, something that is eminently more difficult if buying online.

You are simply wrong, you can not tell most of this from touching looking. Local stores don't sell what you thought they did.

I am not wrong, you can tell those things from the points I raised. Acccept it or not, I don't care.

And my local stores sell exactly what I have said they do...I buy it and I visit these stores, you do not.

No authenticity again. Wow. So a butcher somehow has more authenticity? Really this is a stupid argument and I have no idea why you are peddling it.

stop being facetious. The premise is sound, and I can't understand how you think selecting food from a picture and a description is somehow superior to selecting it in person from reputable local suppliers.

Let all throw are arms up and go kill, butcher and eat our own meat. It's the only way to be sure.

Grow up.

The china is complex.

I am sure China is very complex, however the supply chain is not necessarily complex...and with regard to Waitrose the supply chain is as simple as being reared, slaughtered and butchered on their Estate at Leckford and travelling a few miles (if you don't want to visit the Farm and shop yourself of course) to their Salisbury store. Other products such as Welsh Lamb and New Zealand lamb are sourced in similar way, direct from specific and verifiable suppliers. I really is not complex at all.

So you sited a waitrose farm, then purchased meat from taht farm from a shop?

Yes.

Despite them having many farms.

You can buy from a specific suppler on request, and their Lechford estate is the predominant supplier for our local store and is labelled thusly and They put their farmers details on their fresh meat products.

Yes it will be grain fed. I can almost guarantee they are grass fed in the summer and in the winter locked up and grain fed. The slaughter age varys, but you won't get one at the ege of 6months slaughtered. It will have done at least one winter and more like two-three winters. Inside and on grain.

In some cases it is...however you can also buy a range of 100% grass fed beef in some stores. Just because they sell one product range doesn't preclude others...just like you can buy organic or non organic and a whole range of other locally sourced or individual products.

So yes you are wrong, you said waitrose did 100% grass fed, they don't. It's as simple as that.

No I am not, they do sell 100% grass fed beef, you simply cannot accept that other places rear and stock something that you state can only be found on the internet. Check other forums etc, you will find I am not the only one to have bought 100% grass fed meat from waitrose.

 

[Glaucus]

So you are still ignoring waitroses own labeling.

castiel has a point though, can you prove 100% that the chicken you buy from whatever.com is actually pure chicken?

no you cant, you have to trust the butcher etc. Just like everyone trusted tesco et al, to say their lasagne was beef, when it was horse.

No he doesn't have the point. Can he prove that the stuff from waitrose or anywhere else is pure? No he can't. Unless he follows the animal from the farm, to the slaughter to the butcher to his house.
So no he has no point at all and as I said its a stupid argument.

And I've said you have to trust them be it a farm, butcher or supermarket, so not sure why you bring that up.
However traceability on a small farm is going to be a lot easier than 1 in a million chickens that are in a supermarket from different countries/farms/slaughter houses/packaging plants etc.

 

[Castiel]

So you are still ignoring waitroses own labeling.

No, you are applying one definition to every range that they sell....

No he doesn't have the point. Can he prove that the stuff from waitrose or anywhere else is pure? No he can't. Unless he follows the animal from the farm, to the slaughter to the butcher to his house.
So no he has no point at all and as I said its a stupid argument.

There is more likelihood that the product I buy locally is sourced locally, also waitrose has a statutory responsibility to ensure their local labelled product ranges are indeed supplied thus, they also go to the extent to give the farmers details on the packaging which is easily verifiable. You can also vist their farms, particularly their Lechford Estate where the produce comes from and you can also but the same produce directly from Lechford if you prefer.

And I've said you have to trust them be it a farm, butcher or supermarket, so not sure why you bring that up.

Because you seem to think that I am making some argument based on a narrow premise, and I am not.

However traceability on a small farm is going to be a lot easier than 1 in a million chickens that are in a supermarket from different countries/farms/slaughter houses/packaging plants etc.

On a small farm, but over the internet?

And even on a small farm, can you be sure that they haven't fed grain to their cattle at some point, it would be easier for a small independent to circumvent their stat4ed claims than it would be for a regulated and inspected Supermarket chain.

Which is what we are discussing....any supplier could set up a website, call it Small Farm Inc....claim whatever they wish and supply products from god knows where...and you would be none the wiser. Farms shops are great and a good way to buy local produce, but I would personally visit the shop and the farm it is part of and select my own products, rather than simply trust the claims on the internet.

And that is my argument. You are free to do as you wish.