Fat tax

[elmarko]

This pretty much sums it up. It's disgusting when people blame obesity on a lack of education or availability of healthy food. Everything required is out there. Lots of people these days just like to blame their problems on someone else

As a society one fact remains.

1. If you make cheap unfilling high sugar (either through carbs or pure sugar) filled foods - easy to make, with low nutritional value you WILL have an obesity epidemic given enough time.

We can dance around this fact talking about personal responsibility until we go blue in the face, but until the above changes people are only going to keep getting fatter & fatter & costing the NHS more.

It is cheaper & significantly easier to make unhealthy food, which is not only usually tastes better (to somebody with a sweet tooth) - but is also addictive.

It's hardly a contest (which is evident at how badly healthy food is doing).

 

[Castiel]

No, you can not tell how it is raised or what's been added by look alone.
Even steak and looking at marbling etc only tells you so much.

You can tell a lot about a chicken by looking at it, spotting on the skin and flesh indicate poorly reared battery products, bloating and rounding of the Breast indicate additives, particularly water, check the pliability of the breast to see if it bounces back, it should unless it has had preservatives added, check for ice or discolouration which indicated prefrozen produce which breaks down the proteins and nutrients in the product and check the flesh is pink and not turning grey as that indicates how fresh it is, check the skin to make sure it is a pale yellow or Cream colour, that indicates quality and freshness, if the skin is beginning to look transparent it indicates degredation of the product. Check the packaging for blood or water which indicates a fresh product that was once frozen, and look around the premises for how the product is stored and so on......

None of which can you do on a computer screen.

 

[mo9204]

people need to be educated not raise fat food. if i want something, i dont care how much it cost i will buy it.

 

[Glaucus]

Few of which you can do with a skinless breast and few are an exact science.
I can do all of that on a computer. I know there's no additives, I know how they are raised, where they are raised, I can even see photos of where they are raised. I can even ask questions. Something you can't do in supermarkets. Shape and look also vary by bread, something you generally do not know.

I still disagree you can tell a lot from a chicken breast, you are vastly over exaggerating what you can tell. You are far better knowing these things than guessing.

 

[Castiel]

Few of which you can do with a skinless breast and few are an exact science.
I can do all of that on a computer. I know there's no additives, I know how they are raised, where they are raised, I can even see photos of where they are raised. I can even ask questions. Something you can't do in supermarkets. Shape and look also vary by bread, something you generally do not know.

I still disagree you can tell a lot from a chicken breast, you are vastly over exaggerating what you can tell. You are far better knowing these things than guessing.

I would like you demonstrate how you can test for pliability etc through a computer screen. As for breeds, of course they are different and if you are shopping for a specific breed or raised chicken then there are specifics you can look for, however you are looking for rounding of the breast, which occurs despite differences in the cut or shape of a breast.

You have to take what the supplier is stating at face value, you have no other way of objectively checking the product yourself prior to purchase. You don't know whether the product is as described until you have purchased it. Buying from a butcher, market, farmers shop or high street supermarket is far more hands on and you are better able to judge for yourself the quality of what you are buying.

And, of course you can ask questions in a supermarket, I do it all the time.

And you are right, you are far better knowing these things than guessing, which is why I shop for food personally, not rely on pictures and descriptions on the Internet.

 

[Glaucus]

Supermarkets won't have the awnser or traceability.
You can at best have a very rough guess. I can much easier find these things out on the net and of course you have to trust the supplier. That goes with butcher/supermarket as well.
You can not tell by just looking the things you say.

For a start try finding 100% grass fed beef in any butcher or supermarket? You won't. In fact I've found less than half a dozen suppliers in the uk, so far.
Then see if you can find out what breed they are, what exact farm they were raised on, what they were fed, how they were raised etc!
You can NOT do this by looking and you certainly can not do this in a supermarket.

I'll stick to my online shopping from small farms that fit my criteria, all at a price marginally more than average supermarket prices.

This is also why with the horsemeat scandal. They need massive fines and jail time. You have to trust suppliers. And looking and touching will not tell you these things.

 

[R.P.L]

As a society one fact remains.

1. If you make cheap unfilling high sugar (either through carbs or pure sugar) filled foods - easy to make, with low nutritional value you WILL have an obesity epidemic given enough time.

We can dance around this fact talking about personal responsibility until we go blue in the face, but until the above changes people are only going to keep getting fatter & fatter & costing the NHS more.

It is cheaper & significantly easier to make unhealthy food, which is not only usually tastes better (to somebody with a sweet tooth) - but is also addictive.

It's hardly a contest (which is evident at how badly healthy food is doing).

Yes I agree. It still winds me up though.

 

[Horse Pop]

I think the biggest issue is that people don't know how to cook these days. Combine that with a general lack of interest in food and you have quick and easy unhealthy diet.

I put myself in that same group btw, some nights I'll take the time to make something nice but most of the time I just want something quick and easy from the convenience store.

I'm starting to pay more attention now but it's not something that interests me, it's just another daily chore.

It's definitely a lot to do with this.

As my wife can and does cook our food shop contains p much zero crap food and that works out cheaper. If neither of us cooked we'd probably eat a lot more ****.

 

[D.P.]

While they are at it they should slap a tax on sitting down as well.

Junk food surely isn't the whole issue, though is a big part of it I'll agree.

What about the cheaper versions of popular food stuffs. i.e supermarket own brand beans over Heinz beans. Chances are the own brand product will have a higher fat or sugar content. Yet people buy the own brand stuff to make their money go further.

There is also the issue of exercise. Has there been a genuine decrease in the amount of exercise people are doing especially in children and if so why.

Have we seen an increase in calorie intake over the years or are we as a nation getting less exercise.

Have a look at the ingredients of supermarket brand products. In my experience they actually tend to have lower fat, lower sugar and lower salt than named brands, if not identical amounts.

 

[Castiel]

Supermarkets won't have the awnser or traceability.

Nonsence, supermarkets have a very advanced and legally bound supply chain, they know exactly where there products are sourced, it is other branded products outside of the purview of the supermarkets that generally have issues. And every supermarket will have trained people who will know their product lines inside out, particularly those with fresh meat counters. The butcher in my local supermarket has 30 years experience as a butcher for example.

You can at best have a very rough guess. I can much easier find these things out on the net and of course you have to trust the supplier. That goes with butcher/supermarket as well.

You can not tell by just looking the things you say.

I am sure you are an expert on this, but I disagree totally. You can tell a lot about the quality and freshness of a product in the flesh so to speak than you can by pictures on the internet.

For a start try finding 100% grass fed beef in any butcher or supermarket? You won't. In fact I've found less than half a dozen suppliers in the uk, so far.

Go to Waitrose, they sell grass reared beef from their own estates.

Then see if you can find out what breed they are, what exact farm they were raised on, what they were fed, how they were raised etc!

You can accept what the website tells you, nothing more.

You can NOT do this by looking and you certainly can not do this in a supermarket.

Yes you can, with the added ability to see the product and examine the product before you buy it. It is also easier to return sub-standard produce.

I'll stick to my online shopping from small farms that fit my criteria, all at a price marginally more than average supermarket prices.

Muscle food.com is a small farm?...I have looked briefly and nowhere can I find where it gives me a detailed view of the supply chain, the source farms or the clarification of breed or rearing.

Neither the Stilton Farms (is a farm or simply a third party butcher, it isn't clear) or the Bulkmeats website give the information I could easily get from my local supermarket and by looking at the product myself.

Each to their own, but I will stick to my local butchers, farm shops and supermarket where I can see and ask about what I am buying directly.

This is also why with the horsemeat scandal. They need massive fines and jail time. You have to trust suppliers. And looking and touching will not tell you these things.

The majority of the problem came from the suppliers, those same suppliers that are supplying Internet suppliers such as Musclefoods.com.

 

[R.P.L]

The other point I meant to make is that diet is only half (if that) of the story. For all the people who do literally no exercise, I don't think an unhealthy food tax will save them from health complications.

 

[Glaucus]

They don't sell 100% grass fed. Grass reared is not the same as 100%, but it does fool most people.
Such a good supply chain they can't even get the right meat. That doesn't just apply to the horse, there's multiple **** ups. From pork in beef etc.

You have just guessed on suppliers.
I use small farms so I know where it's from.

I didnt say I buy from muscle food. Two different discussions, you said you can't buy water, sugar, slat free for that price. Well you can. Then there's the discussion about how much you can tell by look and feel alone, and that really isn't a lot at all.

I buy from places like this
http://shop.fordhallfarm.com/

The chosen cattle at Fordhall are Herefords and Aberdeen Angus.

Our free range cattle graze on our chemical free herbal pastures through winter and summer with no other feed (otherwise known as Foggage Farming). All Herefords and Aberdeen Angus, our traditional herd is hardy and accustomed to living outdoors.

We are currently building up our suckling herd. They generally calve in the spring and are on the farm for you to see when you visit the nature trail. We have recently acquired some pedigree Aberdeen Angus and pedigree Hereford cattle which are the back bone of the new suckler herd. Our new bull was purchased from Carlisle in the spring of 2008 and has been named Hamish. These traditional breeds are accustomed to living out doors and have thick coats to cope with winter weather.

How it works for our animals

With no added fertilisers, no routine antibiotics or hormones, and no other animal feeds, our cattle grow and mature stress-free as they would naturally.

The elimination of dry feed from the diet is just one example of how Fordhall’s herd is set apart from the conventional. By maintaining a fresh grass fed diet our cattle experience no major dietary changes (as those which may occur when housed dry fed cattle are returned to fresh pastures in the spring).

The amount of places which sound great but aren't is shocking. I've emailed a lot and got disappointing responses. A many say grass fed in summer. If it says that almost guarantee they are housed and grain fed in winter

And when in doubt I can email. Supermarkets just won't have the awnsers the supply chain is to long and complex.

 

[MrMoonX]

the sites that Glaucus posted are just lol, they sell cheap meat for meatheads. The simplest answer is to just not eat meat, it isnt essential and people would be a lot healthier on plant based diets anyway.

 

[Glaucus]

the sites that Glaucus posted are just lol, they sell cheap meat for meatheads. The simplest answer is to just not eat meat, it isnt essential and people would be a lot healthier on plant based diets anyway.

Lol.
Yes it is cheap meat, it was showing you can buy meat that isn't packed with water/salt/sugar for £5 which was the orginal point Castiel said you couldn't.
That is a different discussion to quality in general.

The solution isn't to throw meat away. It is very hardwork to have a healthy diet without meat. Yes it is possible. But it requires far more knoledge, planning and variety. So no it realy wouldn't solve anything, but make the population worse. With even less healthy fat intake, more sugar intake and less nutrition. As already showen people don't have the knowledge/will power etc.

 

[Ilikeitblackplease]

Used to be able to buy a 2L of cocacola for £1.. now its £2.09... How much more do you want it to rise?

£100 per bottles

 

[MrMoonX]

Lol.
Yes it is cheap meat, it was showing you can buy meat that isn't packed with water/salt/sugar for £5 which was the orginal point Castiel said you couldn't.
That is a different discussion to quality in general.

The solution isn't to throw meat away. It is very hardwork to have a healthy diet without meat. Yes it is possible. But it requires far more knoledge, planning and variety. So no it realy wouldn't solve anything, but make the population worse. With even less healthy fat intake, more sugar intake and less nutrition. As already showen people don't have the knowledge/will power etc.

There is loads of research to show that people on plant based diets have fewer cancers, heart disease and are generally healthier. If everyone ate that way we would be healthier, not worse, im not sure why you suggest that?

Its not hardwork at all, its easy! the only vitamin you cannot get from plants is B12, which is fortified in most things like soya milk anyway.

 

[Glaucus]

There is loads of research to show that people on plant based diets have fewer cancers, heart disease and are generally healthier. If everyone ate that way we would be healthier, not worse, im not sure why you suggest that?

Its not hardwork at all, its easy! the only vitamin you cannot get from plants is B12, which is fortified in most things like soya milk anyway.

No there isn't. You are confusing statistical data with clinical trials.

All that "reserch" shows is that generally vegatarians are healthier than non vegatarians. This is not a surprise. A lot of vegatarians do it for health reason, they have some knowledge/willpower etc. this is compared against general public meat eaters, who eat crap. So it's no wonder statistically it works out like that.
Now of everyone was a vegetarian you wouldn't have this unbalanced and the statistics would be different.

Statistical reserch should be banned from the public and reserved for what it's meant to be used for, showing scientists where to focus reserch on, where they may or may not find links.

You can make correlations between everything with statistical reserch. It's why daily mail has pretty much everything as causing and curing cancer. These studies should not be interpreted like you or most of the media have.

A similar problem happens with clinical trials, especially HFHP vs HCLF diets they do not say or regulate the type of proteins or fats. So the conclusions are pretty useless.
When it comes to health and diets, the reserch in the most has been shoddy and misleading. Some off it has been a lie. Like the origins for saturated fat is bad, the scientist only picked a few countries that made a nice straight line, despite having data from roughly 4x more countries than he used. As this did not form a nice graph that showed a link.

We need far more clinical trials that are well designed.

 

[MrMoonX]

No there isn't. You are confusing statistical data with clinical trials.

All that "reserch" shows is that generally vegatarians are healthier than non vegatarians. This is not a surprise. A lot of vegatarians do it for health reason, they have some knowledge/willpower etc. this is compared against general public meat eaters, who eat crap. So it's no wonder statistically it works out like that.
Now of everyone was a vegetarian you wouldn't have this unbalanced and the statistics would be different.

Statistical reserch should be banned from the public and reserved for what it's meant to be used for, showing scientists where to focus reserch on, where they may or may not find links.

You can make correlations between everything with statistical reserch. It's why daily mail has pretty much everything as causing and curing cancer. These studies should not be interpreted like you or most of the media have.

but your answer was that if everyone was able to avoid the supermarkets and buy cheap meat then people would be healthier?

If it wasnt the social norm to eat meat, then there would be more vegetarians and and more people study the effects on lifestyle. However at the moment the statistics suggest that veggies and vegans are healthier, you cant just rubbish that. There is medical evidence to suggest that eating animal fats increase the risk of heart disease, by not eating animal anything you are eliminating this factor. That can only be a good thing.

The only reason the majority eat meat is that it is imposed on them by social norms and the evil food industry. The fact is the food industry has been pumping our cheap foods with simple carbs and fat for years, to make it cheaper, less fulfilling and makes us buy more of it. The US food industry is a prime example, the government subsidised corn farmers to make High Fructose Corn Syrup, which has been linked to throwing a so called "fat switch" in people.

 

[Glaucus]

No that wasn't my argument at all, changing meat suppliers on its own will do next to nothing.

It's not about having more people to study. It's about having clinical trials where you can remove a lot but not all of the variables, something you can't do in these statistical reviews.

You may want to rethink the reserch on animal fat and CHD.

And yes I can rubbish statistical reviews. They are there to point for further reserch, they do not prove a link.
There are other mechanisms why those results can be how they are.
In the verpgatrian one for example.
There is less processed vegatarian options in shop
A lot of vegatarians do it for health reasons, so not only will they look at what they eat but exercise and other lifestyle like smoking, drinking etc.
Taking those on board it's no wonder that this data shows what it is, and unlinked to the actual helath of the diet. It could be as simple, per million sample, in the vegatarian gorup, more look after the selfs than in the entire meat group. Now if you showed me health concise vegatarian vs health concise meat eater in a clinical trial I would expect very different results.

And it's not just the corporations doing that. It's the official bodies backing all fat is evil etc, despite the lack of reserch, now we are doing reserch, generally the reserch is not backing what we thought or advise.

 

[Blackjack Davy]

Just another tax, i.e. just another way to screw more money out of people and make us poorer than ever. Will anyone stop drinking fizzy drinks? Of course not, any more than we stop driving our cars even though they're being taxed out of existence.