Silence at work - rememberance

Craterloads said:
No because soldiers are responsible for their own actions, as history has shown us. Why is it you want to shift responsibility away from soldiers for their actions. Without invoking godwins, were nazi executioners excused of responsibility because it was orders.

What in death deserves honour that you did not earn in life? If I remember correctly your stance with Amy Winehouse. Does death automatically result in honour regardless of actions, of course not. Every soldier involved in the opium wars should rot in hell for what they did to the Chinese during the opium war depending on their personal actions.
Click to expand...

We are not paying respects to individual soldiers or their actions however, neither am I shifting an individuals responsibility for their actions either, but the abstract principle of remembering those that freely gave their lives in conflict...it is the act of sacrifice rather than the political ideologue of the specific conflict which determines the memorial.

Germany honour their War Dead, do they honour the death camps or the men that ran them?...No, because the principle is that they are remembering those who sacrificed with honour, not those who acted against the very principles that define the memorial itself and died as a result.

You are a very judgemental person, often about things you know little about..judging every person who took part in the opium wars as deserving hell without knowing exactly what every person did during those trade wars is a case in point, not that any would have had a choice in the 19th Century anyway.

Look, as we keep coming back to the same point..if you don't want to participate or you disagree with the principle then simply don't do it...I don't care, neither is it worth arguing about.

I'll just repeat what I said originally as it explains that it is the principle of sacrifice rather than the actions of an individual or the politics of a specific conflict that is important...

"It is about remembering the dead from and that served in all conflicts, military and civilian. The politics of War are immaterial...it is the principle of the sacrifice they gave that is important, not the Government policies and decision making that may have led to any specific conflict. The remembrance is about the people, not the war."

...the argument you have concocted is about individual actions and the political decision inherent in specific conflicts and wars...something I specifically stated was not what the principle was about.

You don't agree with British Imperialism or the Iraq War or The Falklands then fine, the memorial isn't about those specific conflicts or the rationales for them...it is just about those who sacrificed their lives for an ideal...that their sacrifice was demeaned and thrown away by the politicians and those who dishonour the very principles many fought for is all the more reason to ensure we remember those who did pay that price.
 
Last edited:
uksoldierboy said:
How can a soldier accomplish those things? By questioning his reason for being there? By refusing to take part? By not shooting back?
Click to expand...

How about refusing to go in the first place. I know if my boss asked me to fly half away around the world to kill people because they refuse to subject there people to opium use, I would say no. In fact I would do anything to not do it.
 
Castiel said:
I'm not paying respects to individual soldiers however, neither am I shifting an individuals responsibility for their actions either, but the abstract principle of remembering those that freely gave their lives in conflict...it is the act of sacrifice rather than the political ideologue of the specific conflict which determines the memorial.

Germany honour their War Dead, do they honour the death camps or the men that ran them?...No, because the principle is that they are remembering those who sacrificed with honour, not those who acted against the very principles that define the memorial itself and died as a result.

You are a very judgemental person, often about things you know little about..judging every person who took part in the opium wars as deserving hell without knowing exactly what every person did during those trade wars is a case in point.

Look, as we keep coming back to the same point..if you don't want to participate or you disagree with the principle then simply don't do it...I don't care, neither is it worth arguing about.
Click to expand...

Clearly I said "depending on their personal actions"...... Not sure how missed that for your case and point :)

No because sacrifice without meaning or just cause is pointless and worthy of no honour. Sacrifice for an evil cause is insane and just wrong, neither deserve respect. Sacrifice for a just cause is what we should honour.
 
Last edited:
Castiel;25284022 Germany honour their War Dead said:
Off topic maybe. But ive always found this interesting. How does germany honour their war dead. Yes i can understand for the likes of the whermacht. But organisations such as the waffen ss combat units. Many of whom were involved in massacres of civilians. Oradour sur glan in france in 1944, the bosnian muslims of the 13th handschar division in yugoslavia being a few examples.
Click to expand...
 
setter said:
Off topic maybe. But ive always found this interesting. How does germany honour their war dead. Yes i can understand for the likes of the whermacht. But organisations such as the waffen ss combat units. Many of whom were involved in massacres of civilians. Oradour sur glan in france in 1944, the bosnian muslims of the 13th handschar division in yugoslavia being a few examples.
Click to expand...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkstrauertag

Volkstrauertag (German: people's mourning day) is a public holiday in Germany two Sundays before the first day of Advent. It commemorates all those who died in armed conflicts or as the victims of violent oppression. It was first observed in its modern form in 1952.
Click to expand...

After the end of World War Two, Volkstrauertag was observed in its original form in West Germany, beginning in 1948. The first central meeting of the German War Graves Commission took place in 1950 in the Bundestag in Bonn. In 1952, in an effort to distinguish Volkstrauertag from Heldengedenktag, its date was changed to the end of the ecclesiastical year, a time traditionally devoted to thoughts of death, time and eternity. Its scope was also broadened to include those who died due to the violence of an oppressive government, not just those who died in war.
Click to expand...
 
Craterloads said:
Clearly I said "depending on their personal actions"...... Not sure how missed that for your case and point :)
Click to expand...

I didn't miss it, my point stands in the context of what the memorial stands for. You judged them by your opinion of the actual conflict, not by their individual action or the circumstances relevant to them. I wonder what your actions would be in a conscripted situation where you have no information other than what is given you and the only choice you have is fight or die? Because that was the choice of the majority of soldiers fighting in the 19th century...

Craterloads said:
No because sacrifice without meaning or just cause is pointless and worthy of no honour. Sacrifice for an evil cause is insane and just wrong, neither deserve respect. Sacrifice for a just cause is what we should honour.
Click to expand...

Whatever....you have the right to believe whatever you wish, and you continue to do so....partially due to all those meaningless sacrifices that deserve no memorial nor remembrance. You chose to judge a persons sacrifice by the political decisions of others you either agree or disagree with..I would rather remember them by their willingness to put their lives at risk for an ideal, rather than judge them on the politics that led to their death.

Goodnight.
 
Last edited:
Castiel said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkstrauertag
Click to expand...
Thank you for the link Castiel. Its something ive always wondered about germany and how they deal with the past, particularly with the extreme nazi units. Seen a documentary one night about sepp dietrich, a convicted war criminal but his funeral was a very understated affair attended by a few remaining ss comrades.
 
Castiel said:
I didn't miss it, my point stands in the context of what the memorial stands for.
Click to expand...

No you said without knowing for your case and point, I clearly stated depending on their personal actions. No wiggle room sadly.


Whatever....you have the right to believe whatever you wish, and you continue to do so....partially due to all those meaningless sacrifices that deserve no memorial nor remembrance.

Goodnight.

Yea thanks opium wars! Perhaps in your name. Not my cup of tea ( tea :))
 
Craterloads said:
No you said without knowing for your case and point, I clearly stated depending on their personal actions. No wiggle room sadly.
Click to expand...

No wiggle room is required...just because you do not understand the concept of context or the way in which you offer contradicting positions in order to construct an argument that obfuscates the underlying point that the conflict themselves or the decision inherent in them is separate from what remembrance is actually about, doesn't give you some victory. If anything it merely illustrates either your lack of understanding or your prejudice. I am not sure which.

Craterloads said:
Yea thanks opium wars! Perhaps in your name. Not my cup of tea ( tea :))
Click to expand...

That you find such a conflict cause for levity devalues your assumed moral high ground. Also the opium wars were over more than a century before I was born, so they were not fought in my name...or anyone's name for that matter, they were fought in the name of free trade and regional diplomatic dominance.
 
Last edited:
I would just like to let everyone know it's called 'Remembrance Day' not 'Remembrance Minute'.

The minute is a mass ritual, the day is to pay your respects in your own way.
 
The OP's original point is something we struggle with so much in the UK. Acting with decency and making the most of the freedoms afforded to us due to the sacrifice of our forebears would seem to be almost a duty to me.

Instead, being a moral and upstanding member of society is almost scoffed at.

Patriotism, which this sort of holiday should promote is left to the old. People are scared to show their love for their country as often its seen as racist, and morons waving flags at football matches and EDL rallies make decent Britons look like fools.

It shows as well in threads like this, where the brilliant message is derailed by someone desperately trying to be clever by talking about Opium Wars and someone equally annoying using the word "conflate" out of context.

The minute/2 minute silence isn't a meaningless platitude by the way. Getting hyperactive morons at work to remain quiet for 2 minutes to remember sacrifice might be the only time in these people's lives when they think about something other than themselves.
 
Conflate: In logic, it is the practice of treating two distinct concepts as if they were one, which produces errors or misunderstandings as a fusion of distinct subjects tends to obscure analysis of relationships which are emphasized by contrasts.....so, no, it's not out of context.
 
Last edited:
Its very good having the minutes/two minutes silence. But as mentioned early on in the thread, I think it should be a public holiday.

Two minutes silence at work is quite frustrating when you have a phone ringing on your desk :/
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom