Nelson Mandela has died

Valo said:
RIP Nelson Mandela. Some people inspire individuals. Some groups, tribes even nations. There are very few who inspire generations. A truly amazing man who embodied the very best of humanity.
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I truly hope that he is not the best humanity can offer. A murderer of woman and children and you hold him up as an inspiration! People really need to read more than a few tabloid headlines :(

Yes he did a huge amount of good later in life but as already stated in this thread he made no apologies for the innocents he murdered. He didn't need to apologise for rising against apartheid merely for those innocents he killed. He couldn't even do that.
 
Dimple said:
More importantly most white South Africans also think he did right.
I had several friends from South Africa and they hated Apartheid.
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I've got a lot of South African friends and many of them hate Apartheid. Now.

25 years ago they didn't seem too bothered about the injustice of it all. Yes, I'm that old.

I doubt you'd ever get the absolute truth from my friends. I can only compare it to how Germans act when faced with reminders of WWII. An almost nervous assertion of disgust.
 
krooton said:
As a South African who is fully aware of his history, I still think he was a great man, who did more than enough good to atone for the bad things he did in his youth, even if it wasn't a direct apology as some people seem to be baying for.

I was there, Apartheid was ****ed up, he did what he had to do and many people paid the price, but what he accomplished after all of that (keep in mind he was imprisoned for 28 years) was groundbreaking for the country.

Better a man to have done terrible things, but also great ones, than a man who did nothing at all.

RIP Madibadela.
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Could you tell me why Apartheid was so bad but the BEE is ok?

Mandela presided over a party that oversaw the transition from one form of racism - Apartheid - to the development of another form of racism - the Black Economic Empowerment index.
 
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Raymond Lin said:
Could you give any reasons to why the world in general, from its country, to the media, to world leaders and even history paints him as the very opposite? Why do you think the terror acts that he committed is nothing more than a footnote in his legacy? Do you think people willingly forget? [bold]Do you think people are ignorant and people who simply forgives?[/bold]

I am not talking about Paris Hilton, I am talking about the media and world leaders, people who knows more than you and I. Why do they not paint him in the same vein as Osama Bin Laden?
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i wont comment on the rest as im stuck in between both camps.

but i do think the general public are ignorant.
 
Raymond Lin said:
Could you give any reasons to why the world in general, from its country, to the media, to world leaders and even history paints him as the very opposite? Why do you think the terror acts that he committed is nothing more than a footnote in his legacy? Do you think people willingly forget? Do you think people are ignorant and people who simply forgives?

I am not talking about Paris Hilton, I am talking about the media and world leaders, people who knows more than you and I. Why do they not paint him in the same vein as Osama Bin Laden?
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I would have thought it obvious. Mandela fought a civil war, the outcome of which would naturally benefit the west if he came to power for all the varied obvious reasons that don't really need to be explained (increased trade, etc), along the lines of a theme that Western governments had to be seen to support.

Osama Bin Laden was a former CIA funded freedom-fighter[terrorist] who turned against his former paymasters outright (in addition to their opposing ideologies) when the Saudi's tried to silence him, using US troops.

And yes, the public are generally ignorant and will believe whatever the news tell them.
 
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Whether you admire Obama or not, his tribute was perfect. For whatever his flaws as a leader, he is a fantastic wordsmith.

Whether you agree with how Mandela did it or not, he changed the world, IMO, for the better, sure, there was collateral, as there is during all times of strife and desperation. I don't think he's a saint, but at the same time, he picked up the pieces he created, and made something better as a result. Takes a lot of man to accept one's flaws and try and improve on it.

Either the entire world's population is under a mass delusion, or he really did affect the whole world in a positive way - I'm likely to believe that he did more good than harm.

What I don't want to hear, is vitriolic messages of hate. There is no need for that, and if you feel that strongly about it, kindly post in a more rational way, or don't bother posting. Posting disagreements is fine (we're all allowed opinions) but being purposely antagonistic and vicious is not on. (Not aimed at anyone, just airing my feelings on the subject.)
 
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kitkat9933 said:
How can people mourn him.

Just to say this isn't a troll do some research into the subject. But he personally ordered the murder of 1000's of white people, including children. He isn't this saint like figure everyone sees him as. He was the founder of Umkhonto we Siswe ("Spear of the People"), the ANC's terrorist arm.
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If you knew your history, the armed struggle started after the Sharpeville Massacre.
 
do_ron_ron said:
If you knew your history, the armed struggle started after the Sharpeville Massacre.
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But that doesn't change the fact that he responded to violence with yet more violence. Gandhi achieved as much, if not more than Mandela without violence. The standard had been set, the examples made but Mandela chose not to go that route.
 
platypus said:
Could you tell me why Apartheid was so bad but the BEE is ok?

Mandela presided over a party that oversaw the transition from one form of racism - Apartheid - to the development of another form of racism - the Black Economic Empowerment index.
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It was known as Equal Opportunity when it first kicked in, and was an overzealous attempt to try and balance the wrongdoings of Apartheid.

Keep in mind that Mandela's leadership ended in the 90s, and the subsequent presidents have all been absolute idiots with chips on their shoulders, hence the country being in it's current state. Mandela's ideology of peace and tolerance is not being followed any more.

The problem is that when the ANC came in to power, loads of people got positions in government that they were in no way suitable for. It was the black people of my generation that would have truly benefited, being able to go to better schools and uni to gain the skills required for government positions. What actually happened was complete idiots like Jacob Zuma becoming the Minister of Health, and now the current president.
 
Captain Planet said:
Sounds like the reasoning made by these guys...

GgvLGYkt
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So wrong on so many levels!

Mandela had the chance to rally "troops" to fight by any means necessary. He didn't, he said this:

This strife among ourselves wastes our energy and destroys our unity. My message to those of you involved in this battle of brother against brother is this: take your guns, your knives, and your pangas, and throw them into the sea! Close down the death factories. End this war now!
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If only other countries could listen and act of things like that!
 
krooton said:
It was known as Equal Opportunity when it first kicked in, and was an overzealous attempt to try and balance the wrongdoings of Apartheid.

Keep in mind that Mandela's leadership ended in the 90s, and the subsequent presidents have all been absolute idiots with chips on their shoulders, hence the country being in it's current state. Mandela's ideology of peace and tolerance is not being followed any more.
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I know exactly what it was called, what its intended purpose was, and how the system came to be abused. And the term Equal Opportunity was nothing but window dressing - it had to be anything but in order to create balance and undo the Apartheid system.

Mandela may have stepped away from leadership in 1999(?) but he certainly laid the groundwork and legislation for the BEE. I fully agree that the original intentions were to balance Apartheid, but where was Mandela to complain when it became obvious (as if it wasn't blindingly obvious that it would be abused!) that things were swinging to opposite extremes?

The problem is that when the ANC came in to power, loads of people got positions in government that they were in no way suitable for. It was the black people of my generation that would have truly benefited, being able to go to better schools and uni to gain the skills required for government positions. What actually happened was complete idiots like Jacob Zuma becoming the Minister of Health, and now the current president.
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Yep, I don't disagree with this, but again it's fairly obvious that the system was going to be abused.
 
Chequred life but for the right reasons. One mans freedom fighter will always be another's terrorist.

Been to S.A twice. Cape Town. One of the most disparate, awful places I've ever been to. Never felt so uncomfortable to walk down the street in my life. That country is a mess. Needs some real leadership and direction.
 
Yes he caused Terror when he was younger, and can be called a terrorist, But in later life he lead a country into a better place and can be called a savior.

He is a two sided coin all right.
 
Efour said:
Chequred life but for the right reasons. One mans freedom fighter will always be another's terrorist.

Been to S.A twice. Cape Town. One of the most disparate, awful places I've ever been to. Never felt so uncomfortable to walk down the street in my life. That country is a mess. Needs some real leadership and direction.
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Did some work out there a few years ago, driving through the local towns we had to have the windows up and aircon on.

If you had the window down and your arm on the sill looking cool in your raybans, you would find your arm grabbed, pulled out straight and then machete'd off for your watch.
 
Wasn't a movie released last night about his life?

Coincidence? Or was he on life support & the family waited to turn it off?

Either way, he had a good run, time to rest now...
 
Diagro said:
Yes he caused Terror when he was younger, and can be called a terrorist, But in later life he lead a country into a better place and can be called a savior.

He is a two sided coin all right.
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Ultimately, and all the problems aside, this sums it all up pretty well for me.
 
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