Lawful killing of Mark Duggan

[dowie]

The one that pulled the trigger, was a bad one. He acted irresponsibly and absolutely trigger happy, nearly killing his team mate and endangering the lives of others. Not to mention wrongly killing Duggan.

Yeah the officer messed up, with very serious consequences - both injuring a colleague and killing someone who was perhaps unarmed at the time... he was possibly mid way through throwing the gun or had already thrown it a second or two before being shot.. was it just his mobile phone in his hand etc... It wasn't unlawful though - the officer had a reasonable belief that he was an immediate threat. As for trigger happy - that officer has likely stopped people hundreds of times before... without shooting any of them. When a suspect is known to be armed and dangerous, doesn't comply and is behaving erratically (leaping from a cab with a firearm when stopped) its going to significantly increase the chances that that the police will end up firing. Duggan could quite easily have just stayed in his seat and stuck his hands where they could see them... he'd still be alive today if he wasn't such a moron.

If anyone of us, were to pull the same thing off, as in shoot someone who didn't actually have a gun on them, we would be criminally accountable. But V53 gets off scott free, thanks to some clever PR.

You don't seem to understand how a this thing worked - the jury weren't asked to consider press stories, spin, PR etc.. they were presented with evidence, witness testimony and asked to be objective... any clever PR had very little to do with this hearing.

But what's worse is how the Met all banded together, made stories up, went about tarnishing the name of Duggan, far far worse than the small time crook that he was.
[...]
Duggan didn't start the riots, he was laying in a morgue dead. He leaves four children and a family.. Do you really think a hardened criminal would work as a clothes retailer? Big time drug lord that he is?

small time crooks don't carry guns...

His family sparked the riots by leading half a council estate up to the local police station for an impromptu protest, demanding immediate answers before an inquiry had even properly started.

I'm not sure what you'd class as a hardened criminal but you're being a bit naive if you're basing that denial on his convictions or the fact they stated he had a job doing x...

A few people have pointed out that his actual convictions have only been for cannabis and sale of stolen goods... Its like trying to argue that Al Capone wasn't a violent thug by pointing out that his only conviction was for tax evasion... (not that Duggan's career has been anywhere near as lucrative as Capone's)
Duggan had several arrests for firearms related incidents, guns found in cars he's been traveling in, arrests for murder, attempted murder, intelligence linking him to a a shooting in a nightclub, shooting in a club carpark etc..etc.. He was a known gang member, had close friends serving life for murder (the two from the picture posted earlier in the thread). Lastly the fact he was in possession of an illegal firearm in itself negates any notion that he was a 'small time crook'

 

[n111ck]

COD has a lot to answer for

 

[deuse]

You don't seem to understand how a this thing worked - the jury weren't asked to consider press stories, spin, PR etc.. they were presented with evidence, witness testimony and asked to be objective... any clever PR had very little to do with this hearing.

Do you really think none of the jury saw and heard the lies from the met at that time?

His family sparked the riots by leading half a council estate up to the local police station for an impromptu protest, demanding immediate answers before an inquiry had even properly started.

The police had said "even on the TV" that he shot a police officer when in fact it was a trigger happy cop
that done it. And the same one that got it all mixed up in court.
Trust in the police force for me has reached zero.

 

[Danthus]

You are basing you opinion of the police on a few high profile cases, hardly objective is it.

 

[Skunkworks]

A sniper could have killed the lot then go off and had fish and chips. Another bunch of larpers.

I’m actually embarrassed for you.

 

[dowie]

A sniper could have killed the lot then go off and had fish and chips. Another bunch of larpers.

This why I think UK police that want to handle guns should be trained up in parts of the USA like Florida\Washington DC
there they will face armed and very dangerous people every hour of every day not just now and then like they do here.

Or get the X-army guys that have been on the front line doing it.

And who are you to call these officers larpers? Do you have firearms training or are you basing this on 'paintball' and playing call of duty?

Watching a few youtube clips and deciding that firearms training for UK forces is somehow deficient is a bit of a leap... the fact that shootings are incredibly rare in the UK ought to indicate that generally we're doing things quite well...

 

[Danthus]

Is anyone else listening to his mother now?

 

[Destination]

Is anyone else listening to his mother now?

No, listening to the families of known criminals complaining about a system they refused to participate within (staying legal) isn't going to entertain or stimulate me.
I'll care little for what she says, or what she hopes for, or what she uses legal aid to try to obtain.

 

[n111ck]

Have they mentioned 'compensation' yet?

 

[grudas]

I think they might be protesting right now.. I rode past the police station to get to the post office and most of the main roads are closed, and a hundred or so people are protesting by the station.. didn't pay much attention tho

 

[Stretch]

Whether the police lied or not, this thread, and the opinions of many others around the country clearly underlines the fact that trust in the police (especially in London) is extreamly low. This isn't without foundation imo, and the mistrust has grown beyond the normal friction that exists between minority and working class communities.

 

[dowie]

Do you really think none of the jury saw and heard the lies from the met at that time?

I've got no idea if any witnesses, police or otherwise, deliberately lied or not... that's got nothing to do with spin and PR mentioned in the post I quoted.

The police had said "even on the TV" that he shot a police officer when in fact it was a trigger happy cop
that done it. And the same one that got it all mixed up in court.
Trust in the police force for me has reached zero.

The police didn't say that.

 

[CharlieRich]

Have they mentioned 'compensation' yet?

That will be the next thing... I guarantee you

 

[grumpysculler]

This why I think UK police that want to handle guns should be trained up in parts of the USA like Florida\Washington DC
there they will face armed and very dangerous people every hour of every day not just now and then like they do here.

Most american cops don't get anything like that level of training. They may encounter armed opposition more often, but training is training. Operations are operations.

If you want to train, you need to do training. That's why most special forces operate on rotation so that they get quality training time.

 

[grumpysculler]

What about the cab driver? Why are we not hearing from him? Have the police hushed him? Threatened him with deportation maybe?

Witness list. Did you read?

 

[NeilF]

Are you a part time cop as well?

No, I'm a full time rational grown up.

I'm seriously a little bit embarrassed for you with some of the stuff you're stating. You seem to come across as a true internet couch expert.

I really don't car what people think I haven't got a inferiority complex.

I suspect I'm not alone in beginning to believe you've got some sort of complex.

 

[d_brennen]

Witness list. Did you read?

It's far easier to imagine your own take on a situation you have scant knowledge of is correct than to actually look into it and form an opinion based on evidence tbh

 

[Woden]

This why I think UK police that want to handle guns should be trained up in parts of the USA like Florida\Washington DC
there they will face armed and very dangerous people every hour of every day not just now and then like they do here.

Yea, that is a great idea. Take a police office from a country that has one of the lowest fatal police shootings in the world and give them training in a country with one of the highest. Nothing could possibly go wrong here.

While we are at it we can train our flood teams in the Sahara.

 

[deuse]

You are basing you opinion of the police on a few high profile cases, hardly objective is it.

I'm basing it on the living through the corrupt police in the 60s 70s and 80s dude. They are just getting worse.

Most american cops don't get anything like that level of training. They may encounter armed opposition more often, but training is training. Operations are operations.

If you want to train, you need to do training. That's why most special forces operate on rotation so that they get quality training time.

Some of my family members in Pasco county Police service would disagree and there parents was both DCs in the UK police

 

[deuse]

Yea, that is a great idea. Take a police office from a country that has one of the lowest fatal police shootings in the world and give them training in a country with one of the highest. Nothing could possibly go wrong here.

While we are at it we can train our flood teams in the Sahara.

The only reason the UK has the lowest fatal police shootings(if they do) because the shot first and ask later
also members of the public are not allowed to carry arms like they can in most US states so that helps.

Oh and if you want to go low look at Iceland loads of guns about but only ONE cop killed

I just don't trust the cops any more but that's just me.