Facebooks 50 Genders

[TheLegendOfMart]

Excellent cop-out. If it's not being reported, how would you know about it.

Just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist? Well, that's the same for anything isn't it. You could make any claim and use that excuse when asked to provide proof.

Why not just admit that thousands of teenagers aren't killing themselves due to being gender-confused no matter how much you want it to be true.

Says the guy who couldn't be bothered to look past the first 20 news articles on the first page of 815 pages.

I have come to the conclusion that you don't want it to be true because of your prejudices, I feel sorry for your kid.

 

[Frightful Boar]

"41% of people who are transgender or gender-nonconforming have attempted suicide sometime in their lives, nearly nine times the national average".

That's nothing like "thousands of teenagers are killing themselves due to being gender-confused".

It looks as though they are trying to kill themselves due to a mixture of domestic violence, homelessness and family estrangement.

Also, they're not teenagers.

Thanks for your reply though.

Says the guy who couldn't be bothered to look past the first 20 news articles on the first page of 815 pages.

I have come to the conclusion that you don't want it to be true because of your prejudices, I feel sorry for your kid.

Well it's up to the person making the claim to prove it surely, otherwise it's just an empty claim.

My kid feels sorry for you.

 

[wickfut]

Serious question..

Why is this mental illness allowed to be treated with body mutilation?
I'm all for someone being able to make choices regarding their bodies and surgery, but for doctors to allow someone who has an obvious illness to make these decisions seems really off the mark to me. At what extremes do they draw the line.
I doubt if I decided I was unhappy with my arms would they allow me to have an operation to chop them off, yet allowing gender changing surgery is ok.

I was handcuffed (work related) to some guy while he went to hospital for the "chop" and I spoke to him for a good 6 months afterwards. It didn't seem to make him any happier. All it did was bring pain, medical complications and a need for privacy while he shoved tubes up himself to urinate.

 

[RDM]

Serious question..

Why is this mental illness allowed to be treated with body mutilation?

When it seems to work with greater effect than other types of treatment?

I'm all for someone being able to make choices regarding their bodies and surgery, but for doctors to allow someone who has an obvious illness to make these decisions seems really off the mark to me. At what extremes do they draw the line.
I doubt if I decided I was unhappy with my arms would they allow me to have an operation to chop them off, yet allowing gender changing surgery is ok.

Body Identity Integrity Disorder, quite uncommon and very rare that amputations are allowed, but the limited evidence shows that it can actually reduce suffering.

If surgery is the most effective method of treating the problem then surely from an ethical standpoint it should be considered?

 

[Frightful Boar]

Serious question..

Why is this mental illness allowed to be treated with body mutilation?
I'm all for someone being able to make choices regarding their bodies and surgery, but for doctors to allow someone who has an obvious illness to make these decisions seems really off the mark to me. At what extremes do they draw the line.
I doubt if I decided I was unhappy with my arms would they allow me to have an operation to chop them off, yet allowing gender changing surgery is ok.

I was handcuffed (work related) to some guy while he went to hospital for the "chop" and I spoke to him for a good 6 months afterwards. It didn't seem to make him any happier. All it did was bring pain, medical complications and a need for privacy while he shoved tubes up himself to urinate.

I would have thought if the presence of a penis doesn't make you a man (according to this new paradigm) then the absence of one wouldn't make you a woman.

But agree, your first sentence does reveal a weird double standard in the treatment of mental illness.

 

[RDM]

That's nothing like "thousands of teenagers are killing themselves due to being gender-confused".

It looks as though they are trying to kill themselves due to a mixture of domestic violence, homelessness and family estrangement.

Also, they're not teenagers.

Thanks for your reply though.



Well it's up to the person making the claim to prove it surely, otherwise it's just an empty claim.

I have no idea if thousands are killing themselves but this site:

Awfully designed transgender support website in horrible pink

Has some pretty startling numbers seeking assistance. (approx. 80,000 calls in 5 years or which approx. 12,000 were about suicide attempts)

 

[Frightful Boar]

I have no idea if thousands are killing themselves but this site:

Awfully designed transgender support website in horrible pink

Has some pretty startling numbers seeking assistance. (approx. 80,000 calls in 5 years or which approx. 12,000 were about suicide attempts)

Wow, that is awfully designed.

And quite dubious. I'm not sure if everyone knows someone who has committed suicide, but the three people I knew well never threatened it once. I'm not sure if that's usual, but it's made me very cynical of people who say...

I'm contemplating suicide

or

I once attempted suicide

So, to me, figures like, xxx amount of young people felt like killing themselves means less than nothing. Every over-emotional teenie thinks about suicide, cos that's what teenagers do.

 

[hurfdurf]

Please will you edit the part about my child killing himself out of your post? I don't mind debating, but I'm finding that quite disturbing, I have a child and I think what you've said extremely unwarranted.

So now you're goading me to meet IRL?

I'll ask again, please remove any references to my child.

No m8. You've gone back and edited your post that originally accused me of something I had quite clearly not done, now you have switched it up to being all cry baby about the fact that I referenced a hypothetical child when it turns out you have one. Reep what you sow big man. Sorry if the question upsets you (not really) but the suicide rate for trans people is sky high and part of it is down to people with your attitude. Maybe answer the question I posed just to yourself and reflect on your attitude.

 

[wickfut]

When it seems to work with greater effect than other types of treatment?

Work? It's basically, "you want to self harm? it's ok though we can do it for you."

Body Identity Integrity Disorder, quite uncommon and very rare that amputations are allowed, but the limited evidence shows that it can actually reduce suffering.

If surgery is the most effective method of treating the problem then surely from an ethical standpoint it should be considered?

Which I'm all for, when a person is in a good state of mind. This to me is a very muddy area as you can't exactly say they're in a good state of mind.

As I've said earlier, it's modern society which dictates what we wear and our general appearance., but fashions change. In the future men may be the ones wearing the dresses and makeup, what then?

"Well you have a mental illness that makes you, a male, believe you're really a female trapped in a males body. That's ok, we'll make sure everyone lies to you and calls you a female, even though they know you aren't"

This is pandering to the illness, not a cure.

 

[RDM]

Wow, that is awfully designed.

And quite dubious. I'm not sure if everyone knows someone who has committed suicide, but the three people I knew well never threatened it once. I'm not sure if that's usual, but it's made me very cynical of people who say...

I'm contemplating suicide

or

I once attempted suicide

So, to me, figures like, xxx amount of young people felt like killing themselves means less than nothing. Every over-emotional teenie thinks about suicide, cos that's what teenagers do.

Try not to take this as an attack but it seems very much like you are dismissing any evidence that does not agree with your position. Personally I am always open to evidence as it allows me to come to an informed opinion.

Any evidence I have managed to find does indeed seem to suggest that suicide rates are higher for LGBT teenagers than most other groups, I would be somewhat careful about labelling this as just "over-emotional teenies".

 

[dirtychinchilla]

Wow, that is awfully designed.

And quite dubious. I'm not sure if everyone knows someone who has committed suicide, but the three people I knew well never threatened it once. I'm not sure if that's usual, but it's made me very cynical of people who say...

I'm contemplating suicide

or

I once attempted suicide

So, to me, figures like, xxx amount of young people felt like killing themselves means less than nothing. Every over-emotional teenie thinks about suicide, cos that's what teenagers do.

So, you want to dismiss them on the grounds that YOU do not think that they are sufficiently suicidal?

 

[Frightful Boar]

No m8. You've gone back and edited your post that originally accused me of something I had quite clearly not done, now you have switched it up to being all cry baby about the fact that I referenced a hypothetical child when it turns out you have one. Reep what you sow big man. Sorry if the question upsets you (not really) but the suicide rate for trans people is sky high and part of it is down to people with your attitude. Maybe answer the question I posed just to yourself and reflect on your attitude.

Yeah I changed it because I thought it would be more pleasant to ask you nicely to remove the post.

I'll ask again, please remove any reference to my child killing himself. This isn't a tough request. I'm not being a cry-baby, merely asking in a polite fashion.

Try not to take this as an attack but it seems very much like you are dismissing any evidence that does not agree with your position. Personally I am always open to evidence as it allows me to come to an informed opinion.

Any evidence I have managed to find does indeed seem to suggest that suicide rates are higher for LGBT teenagers than most other groups, I would be somewhat careful about labelling this as just "over-emotional teenies".

I don't take it as an attack at all and I'll happily change my view. I'd just like to see some evidence (from a reputable source).

You can see how these sorts of things work...

I come from a position where it sounds like BS to me, I'm presented proof, I change my opinion.

Another person may come from a position where they see it as something that fits in with what they believe already, so they take it on face value.

So, I'd need proof to change my opinion. I definitely appreciate the reasonable way in which you've presented your argument and you've opened my eyes to a lot of interesting (although headache inducing) information.

I also wouldn't doubt that LGBT teens do have a higher suicide rate. I fully believe that of their adult counterparts. I doubt however it's in the thousands and that it's because of gender confusion issues as has been put to me.

 

[Frightful Boar]

So, you want to dismiss them on the grounds that YOU do not think that they are sufficiently suicidal?

What do you mean dismiss them?

I didn't have any plans for them at all.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

What do you mean dismiss them?

I didn't have any plans for them at all.

You dismiss the validity of their thoughts of suicide are.

 

[bitslice]

Of course, you'll be fairly gutted if you ever have a "mixed up teenager" who then kills theirself because people with your views have pushed them to not feel welcome in this world... or are you so upset by having your gender normative values questioned that you would rather your child die?

By using the word "your" you removed the basis for it to continue being hypothetical. Another word should have been used.

I disagree with Boar's stance on the topic, but as he does have a child then this is clearly being seen as a personal attack. He's stated he doesn't like the insinuation so whatever case you make for what you think you said, it hasn't read like that to him, or me.

Editing your post is the right thing to do.


Same applies to LegendofMart's similar remark.
People's private and family life is off limit for comment in a debate, stick to the topic.

 

[Theophany]

OP is conspicuous in his absense.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

If he can continue to spout the crap he wants then Caged is free to say what he wants also. It is quite clear it wasn't meant to be an attack on Boars child so simmer down.

 

[Frightful Boar]

You dismiss the validity of their thoughts of suicide are.

It's impossible to know isn't it. How can you tell if someone is genuine or not?

Dismiss them and it could have terrible repercussions. Pander to every whisper of suicide and you not only encourage it but it can make it into a weapon or a threat.

That's why I'm cynical. I wouldn't dismiss as person coming to me with that, but I would be silently cynical.

 

[Frightful Boar]

If he can continue to spout the crap he wants then Caged is free to say what he wants also. It is quite clear it wasn't meant to be an attack on Boars child so simmer down.

I haven't made remarks about anyone's "hypothetical" family though have I? Feel free to slander me all you like, and I'll return the favour (within forum boundaries of course) but c'mon my son's got nothing to do with this.

And I did ask politely. No reason to leave that up there really.

 

[bitslice]

If he can continue to spout the crap he wants then Caged (hurfdurf) is free to say what he wants also. It is quite clear it wasn't meant to be an attack on Boars child so simmer down.

Simmer down? I've made my contribution to the topic so I'm not involving myself in this emotional oneupmanship.
Hurfdurf or you are not free to involve his family regardless of what you think about his viewpoint. You in particular talked directly about his kid. You can't rely on moderators for this as they let certain people get away with anything, therefore other people have to point this out.

Besides, he's not talking crap, he's just taken an unconvinced stance. Nothing illogical about that.



Edit:
Sorry, wrong person referenced.