Facebooks 50 Genders

[hurfdurf]

By using the word "your" you removed the basis for it to continue being hypothetical. Another word should have been used.

I disagree with Boar's stance on the topic, but as he does have a child then this is clearly being seen as a personal attack. He's stated he doesn't like the insinuation so whatever case you make for what you think you said, it hasn't read like that to him, or me.

Editing your post is the right thing to do.

nom8

As has been explained by someone else, the use of your clearly refers back to the original hypothetical child. I wasn't even aware he claimed to have a child. The point still stands, it's a situation which many parents of trans people face, the suicide of their child because of attitudes he has expressed. If that's upsetting, well good, it should be, it is an upsetting fact.

Now bare in mind originally he tried to lie that I had hoped his child would kill their self, I'm not really of the mind to edit my post, especially considering the views he espoused were ones he knew would be hurtful to some and didn't care, I'm not too bothered he's gotten upset at the realisation that it could potentially be his kid who's hurt by them. (If he even has one, I'm dubious considering he has already tried posting lies and then edited his post when called out)

If the mods don't like the discussion of bad things happening to children that's on them, it's clear from my posts I've made no personal attacks, but considering they allow racism, homophobia and transphobia I think they will be ok with it.

 

[jamiehavok]

It's simple. My view is that someone who wants a fully working part of their body chopped off is not in a good state of mind, and we shouldn't allow the consent for an operation like that without a good state of mind. Catch 22.

There must be other alternatives than to let doctors do what is basically self harm on people.

no there isn't! hormones and varying degrees of surgery depending on the level of gender dysphoria and how good a job the hormones do have been proven to be the best remedy. people go from being very depressed and suicidal to happy and living normal lives. If you are that disgusted by a part of your body and want it removed to be happy then why the hell not, a lot of the time a male to female transsexual can have a fully working vagina that can orgasm, so you are still having that part of your body "fully working"

It cant be compared to self harm, self harm is where you harm yourself while conscious to block out emotional distress, comparing self harm to surgery is just silly!

..and by level of dysphoria i mean a lot of transsexuals don't even want full sex reassignment (ie there genitals changed) a lot are comfortable on hormones and maybe some facial surgery/ a boob job etc. a dick doesn't make you a guy, a vagina doesn't make you a woman.

 

[Tunney]

It's simple. My view is that someone who wants a fully working part of their body chopped off is not in a good state of mind, and we shouldn't allow the consent for an operation like that without a good state of mind. Catch 22.

There must be other alternatives than to let doctors do what is basically self harm on people.

This might be your view but it is at odds with the vast majority of medical research. People have to go through years of counselling before they're allowed to undergo surgery.

Also, nothing is 'chopped off'. Without trying to get too graphic, it's more like turning an outie into an innie.

Unfortunately, there's a lot of misinformation in the mainstream media and that fuels ignorance.

 

[wickfut]

This might be your view but it is at odds with the vast majority of medical research. People have to go through years of counselling before they're allowed to undergo surgery.

You do realise that is a contradiction don't you? The fact they go through years of counselling before hand to gauge their mental state shows they agree with me.

If you are that disgusted by a part of your body and want it removed to be happy then why the hell not

You truly believe this is ok? So in your world, any nutjob who wants a limb or two removed should be able to have it done to make them happy?

It cant be compared to self harm, self harm is where you harm yourself while conscious to block out emotional distress, comparing self harm to surgery is just silly!
.

No, it's not silly. In both instances you are making a concious choice to damage your own body in order to relieve some sort of mental pain.

 

[RDM]

You do realise that is a contradiction don't you? The fact they go through years of counselling before hand to gauge their mental state shows they agree with me.

It isn't really a contradiction, just an acknowledgement that things really aren't as simple as you are making out.

You truly believe this is ok? So in your world, any nutjob who wants a limb or two removed should be able to have it done to make them happy?

What if it can be shown that it works better than the alternatives? Should we just let them continue to be unhappy because of squeamishness about removing a limb? Is that not a worse outcome for the patient?

 

[Tunney]

You do realise that is a contradiction don't you? The fact they go through years of counselling before hand to gauge their mental state shows they agree with me.

Absolutely not. The counselling is to make sure that they're serious, committed and aren't mentally ill.

 

[wnb]

I must have led a sheltered life, I need an explanation for most of those genders.

 

[Angilion]

Because pandering to this is the thin edge of the wedge. Soon the fabric of society will be torn apart and we'll just have a mass of 'individuals' with nothing in common with one another. The basis of civilized society is common values, but how can I have common values with a man who thinks he's a female fox?!

Very easily if you act rationally.

I want society to be a mass of individuals. It's a lot better than trying to force everyone to conform to whatever collection of irrational prejudices and passing fads are deemed suitable for people with whatever biological characteristics are wrongly deemed to be of paramount importance at the time. That's irrational to the point of being of dubious sanity.

Yes, common values are necessary in a society.

No, irrational stereotypes and restrictions are not common values.

Of course, people being people means that there's plenty of prejudice and hypocrisy attached to this sort of thing too. For example, 'cisgender' is often interpreted as meaning 'someone who is incapable of understanding and whose opinion is worthless'. Especially if they're also male, 'white' and heterosexual, of course.

 

[Angilion]

I think you'll find the ancient Greeks and Romans got up to some pretty good mischief.

Like... it was pretty gay. Super gay even.

Not the best of examples since both ancient Greece and ancient Rome had very strong ideas about gender. The acceptance of some degree of bisexuality wasn't seen to conflict with that.

Gaius Julius Caesar provides a good example. He went into exile when he was a young man because he was slightly associated with the loser in a civil war and the winner was notoriously murderous. Leaving the empire was enough because Caesar wasn't important enough for the dictator to send killers to another country to murder him. While in exile, he spent time with the king of Bithynia. Allegations about the nature of their relationship later caused him problems politically and socially. Not because it was alleged they had sex with each other. Few if any Romans would have cared about that. The allegation was that Caesar was insufficiently masculine in his sex with the king of Bithynia, that he played too feminine a role. To put it in more infamous terms, that the king of Bithynia lay with Caesar as with a woman.

 

[Angilion]

What I can't understand is why they don't just have it as a field where you can enter what you want. If you're going to the trouble of giving that many options (many of which are simply different terms for the same thing) then just have it as an open field.

That would probably attract less publicity. A huge list of options is more conducive to media exposure than a blank area to type in.

 

[Angilion]

So… as they said on Sky News this morning and O_o each other. What was two-spirit?

A workaround for gendered roles in some north American tribes. A person of one sex could take on the gendered role attached to the other sex.

I suspect that modern usage of it has no real meaning because it means whatever any given person using it wants it to mean.

 

[Fenris]

I must have led a sheltered life, I need an explanation for most of those genders.

You're not the only one, I have literally no idea what most of them mean.

Then again I'm not sure I give a **** either, I don't give a hoot what people want to "identify" as, it makes zero difference to me whatsoever and neither should it to anyone else.

Frankly this stinks of attention seeking from FB, "OMG LOOK HOW PROGRESSIVE WE ARE", eugh.

 

[Angilion]

I been thinking as long as they dont want to waste the NHS's money getting reassigned I don't think it matters too much.

The purpose of the NHS is to apply medical treatments to reduce suffering.

Some people are suffering because they very strongly feel that their body is the wrong sex.

A sex change is currently the medical treatment that is most effective in reducing those people's suffering.

Therefore sex changes are a valid use of NHS money and not a waste of it.

It would be a waste if people were changing sex for entertainment or curiosity, but that doesn't happen on the NHS. It's quite a lengthy process (a year before any surgery if I recall correctly) with various medical assessments.

 

[Craterloads]

The purpose of the NHS is to apply medical treatments to reduce suffering.

Some people are suffering because they very strongly feel that their body is the wrong sex.

A sex change is currently the medical treatment that is most effective in reducing those people's suffering.

Therefore sex changes are a valid use of NHS money and not a waste of it.

It would be a waste if people were changing sex for entertainment or curiosity, but that doesn't happen on the NHS. It's quite a lengthy process (a year before any surgery if I recall correctly) with various medical assessments.

Considering changing a man to a woman or woman to a man is 100% medically impossible, what is the point?

Turning a penis inside out does not equal the removal of the penis and inclusion of a vagina. No more than amputating a leg and attaching it to your shoulder makes it an arm.

 

[RDM]

Considering changing a man to a woman or woman to a man is 100% medically impossible, what is the point?

Because a sex change operation reduces suffering more than any other treatment?

 

[Craterloads]

Because a sex change operation reduces suffering more than any other treatment?

So multiple agonising operations, chopping / slicing parts of the body that are 100% functional is reducing suffering?

Do you advise the same treatment to ill people who think they are foxes? Or birds of prey?

 

[RDM]

So multiple agonising operations, chopping / slicing parts of the body that are 100% functional is reducing suffering?

Yes. Although evidence is poor what evidence there is shows that gender reassignment does indeed prove to be more effective than counselling, especially if carried out in the way that the NHS does (requiring a year + living as your new gender prior to surgery, extensive support etc).

If it reduces overall suffering then I would say it was an effective way of treating it regardless of how squeamish you may be about the procedure.

Do you advise the same treatment to ill people who think they are foxes? Or birds of prey?

Are you being deliberately retarded here or do you honestly think this is a valid comparison?

 

[Craterloads]

It's not me being squeamish, the procedures are horrifically painful, seems an odd way of reducing suffering with more suffering.

Surely by pandering to such illusions it only perpetuates the problem. Perhaps new methods to treat these mentally ill people should be developed that does not involve bodily harm to mentally ill patients.

 

[hurfdurf]

Considering changing a man to a woman or woman to a man is 100% medically impossible, what is the point?

Turning a penis inside out does not equal the removal of the penis and inclusion of a vagina. No more than amputating a leg and attaching it to your shoulder makes it an arm.

My friend lost his leg in Afgan, no point giving him a prosthetic because its 100% impossible to make a new human leg and the prosthetic will never conform to my standards of a leg. He complains but that's prob just a mental issue right? Maybe he should just stop wanting to be able to walk and accept what his body is.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

It's not me being squeamish, the procedures are horrifically painful, seems an odd way of reducing suffering with more suffering.

Surely by pandering to such illusions it only perpetuates the problem. Perhaps new methods to treat these mentally ill people should be developed that does not involve bodily harm to mentally ill patients.

I agree, why should we pander to schizophrenics, people who are bipolar, people who are depressed we should just tell them to stfu and get on with it................................................