Chances of UKIP winning General Election?

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Does it really matter if the definition is technically correct or not? Common usage associates 'Far Right' with Facism and Totalitarianism, and the 'Far Left' with Liberalism and Socialism. Right or wrong, that is what those terms mean in common usage. That is what the papers mean when they use those terms. That is what people understand when they read them. The terms being wrong does not change the context of the discussion. Neo-Nazis don't suddenly become Libertarians because people refer to then as being 'Far Right'. They are still Neo-Nazis.
 
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No it isn't, Nazism was far right, the big misunderstanding is that some people seem to believe that because they called themselves socialists when they were actually not*, it makes them left, communism was left and both Hitler and Stalin considered Communism/Nazism polar opposites.

*They were actually ultra-nationalists, extreme UKIP.

"Left and right wing", perhaps the most meaningless, useless terms to ever grace politics or perhaps even the English language itself. Everyone has their own definition of it.
 
Does it really matter if the definition is technically correct or not? Common usage associates 'Far Right' with Facism and Totalitarianism, and the 'Far Left' with Liberalism and Socialism. Right or wrong, that is what those terms mean in common usage. That is what the papers mean when they use those terms. That is what people understand when they read them. The terms being wrong does not change the context of the discussion. Neo-Nazis don't suddenly become Libertarians because people refer to then as being 'Far Right'. They are still Neo-Nazis.

Of course it matters because the socialists like labelling all the political opponents right wing in order to marginalise them and associate them with bad states from the past, as i have already explained.

elmarko interpretation makes no sense what so ever. He contradicts himself and clearly doesn't know his right from his left.

He thinks libertarianism is right wing and also nazism. Its ridiculous. This is obviously just the socialists or big governments way of framing all their political opponents as racists and if you can't see that then you are obviously just culprit of this very problem.

They (labour and pro eu and pro communism groups) need to stop labelling their political opponents right wing. Just because a party has a policy of anti-mass-immigration does not mean that they are right wing. As a party ukip are pro government and pro socialism, just to a different degree than labour, therefore they are just as left as labour and just because of one policy does not mean they can now be associated with nazism and racism.
 
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"Left and right wing", perhaps the most meaningless, useless terms to ever grace politics or perhaps even the English language itself. Everyone has their own definition of it.

Blame the French!

The terms "left" and "right" were not used to refer to political ideology but only to seating in the legislature. After 1848, the main opposing camps were the "democratic socialists" and the "reactionaries" who used red and white flags to identify their party affiliation.
 
Of course it matters because the socialists like labelling all the political opponents right wing in order to marginalise them and associate them with bad states from the past, as i have already explained.

elmarko interpretation makes no sense what so ever. He contradicts himself and clearly doesn't know his right from his left.

He thinks libertarianism is right wing and also nazism. Its ridiculous. This is obviously just the socialists or big governments way of framing all their political opponents as racists and if you can't see that then you are obviously just culprit of this very problem.
No offence but can you even read?, or have you just had a severe head trauma recently?.

If you read the below as me saying that Libertarianism is right wing or Nazism then you need to go back to school.

Libertarianism is the counter to authoritarianism - both Hitler & Stalin were incredibly authoritarian.

It is not left or right wing in nature (as you can be a left-wing libertarian (collectivism) or a right-wing libertarian (individualism) - both with little state involvement.
 
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If the tory party get back ALL of our laws and stops putting in silly amounts of cash in the EU. I may vote for them.

Just writing that I thought " we have to ask the EU to do something" it's just silly.
There is no difference now then it was when it was called the common market other then they're trying to make us one big peed off family.
 
No offence but can you even read?, or have you just had a severe head trauma recently?.

If you read the below as me saying that Libertarianism is right wing or Nazism then you need to go back to school.

I was always a bit confused, as I though I was left in some terms, and right in others.

As it turns out, I seem to be a Conservative Libertarian (for the most part).
 
I was always a bit confused, as I though I was left in some terms, and right in others.

As it turns out, I seem to be a Conservative Libertarian (for the most part).
If I had to guess (from your posts).

I'd put you as a socially liberal - right wing economic - libertarian. In that you believe in progressive social policy (equal rights, social inclusion), right wing economic policy (free market economics) & a small state/minimal state interference.

(correct me if I'm wrong here) - but I went for the above as the term conservatism tends to ascribe to traditionalism which isn't usually that socially liberal.

Personally, I'm a socially liberal - left wing economic - libertarian. I believe in progressive social policy (equal rights, social inclusion), left wing social policy (collectivism, shared ownership) & a small state/minimal state interference.

no i can't even read :( that explains it. :p
:p ... happens to all of us.
 
You completely ignored that fact that some policies (agricultural) actually make it harder for developing countries. I never said it is all doom and gloom. Yes we can benefit if countries like Spain / Portugal / Greece all caught up with us and started thinking the same way. We nearly crippled ourselves in doing so and I would argue that Greece and Spain are still as corrupt as they ever were. From (albeit limited) experiences in dealing with these countries.

Yes some policies make it harder for developing countries but that happens because they force reforms which are needed to increase productivity in the long term. Corruption is a problem for Southern states but it pales in comparisson to the problems they faced before joining the EU. Yes, they haven't reached the levels of developed countries but the improvements, from Latvia to Portugal, are factual. Meanwhile, the countries that did not join the EU have had slow or no progress, do you deny this?


And the developed ones had to bail them out, how you can say it hasn't been bad to developing ones is beyond me. How you can say we didn't dodge a bullet is also beyond me. If we had adopted the Euro we would have been right behind Ireland and Greece. Only thing that kept us together was the fact we could devalue our currency in times of hardship.

Why compare the UK with Ireland and Greece? You should compare it with France and Germany, did they need a bailout? Did those countries suffer because of the Euro? Quite the contrary, actually.


Congratulations lower roaming charges. EU brings in a whole wash of legislation and regulations costing this country billions (current example are the new banking regulations). Other legislation though that perhaps will appeal more to the everyday man is their attempt to make us give prisoners the vote. Or trying to get motorway speed limits down to 60.

Can you give me one example of EU legislation that impacted anyone's life in a negative way? Not attempts, actual legislation.


EU has helped create this complete freedom of movement (which is not a bad thing per say. It's diffcult, whilst we are in the EU, to say no to an EU member even if they have nothing to offer this country. While I am not against immigration the level that we are experiencing is absurd.

Most of the immigrants are Asian and African. It's debatable whether the levels are absurd but one thing's for sure - the EU has nothing to do with this issue. Unless of course the Polish bother you, do they? Are the Germans and the French also problematic? If so, how? Please explain clearly why you think Polish, German and French people working freely in the UK, is a problem.

There are experts that will disagree with those experts and say all will be well. What is your point? It depends who's payroll they are on.

Where are these experts? Link?

That is pure childish. I'm not asking people to listen. Specifically you asked me why am I anti-EU. My basis. Well I covered that in my last post. It's the same things we heard when we did not adopt the Euro. We seemed to cope rather well without it.

I will re-iterate. The EU isn't all bad. In concept it is a great idea. It has been poorley implemented, but with the best intentions. Some of the worst things in the world are done with the best intentions.

I asked you because I knew you don't have a basis and instead you have anecdotal evidence, vague references and half-truths. If I'm wrong I will apologise, provided you show the examples/links I've asked for.
 
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If I had to guess (from your posts).

I'd put you as a socially liberal - right wing economic - libertarian. In that you believe in progressive social policy (equal rights, social inclusion), right wing economic policy (free market economics) & a small state/minimal state interference.

(correct me if I'm wrong here) - but I went for the above as the term conservatism tends to ascribe to traditionalism which isn't usually that socially liberal.


Seems spot on to me.

I liek equality, but at the same time believe in personal responsibility, so tend to be very liberal in terms of things like drugs policies, and hate entitlement / compensation culture. Do what you want (within reason) but don't blame everyone else for everything. But yes, I'm all capitalist when it comes to the economics side of things.
 
So much wrong in one post.

BNP is socially very very right wing, economically it has a mix of right wing & far left policies. UKIP is right wing socially & economically mostly right wing, with a few left policies.

Most communist nations are socially very right wing, & economically very very left wing (state ownership if you follow that definition - I'd argue it's neither left or right but a third direction, as collective ownership isn't represented - ie, the original intention of Communism which was never actually done). Nazi Germany was ultra right wing socially & mixed economically (neither left or right).

You can't bundle left/right wing on economic issues, it doesn't work when the thing you are comparing has more than one variable. It's akin to describing a cube without taking into account one of the dimensions.

Libertarianism is the counter to authoritarianism - both Hitler & Stalin were incredibly authoritarian.

It is not left or right wing in nature (as you can be a left-wing libertarian (collectivism) or a right-wing libertarian (individualism) - both with little state involvement.

The problem with the left/right dichotomy is that it's been rendered utterly meaningless by it's redefinition. Originally it was meant to describe whether someone was revolutionary or conservative. It had no economic dimension.

As you've noted, adding an economic dimension confuses things. Fascists are what we'd usually consider to be right-wing, but economically they are left-wing. They are also variously considered to be both revolutionary and reactionary depending on who is speaking.

The person you respond to also raises a valid point about both Fascists and Communists having more in common than Anarchists, as the former are totalitarian. In short, the idea of a left/right dichotomy is entirely useless. Even the supposed 'political axis' is pretty worthless.

That said, I disagree with your description of Communists as being 'socially right-wing'. What do you base that upon? Communism is revolutionary and progressive, which is why women and homosexuals enjoyed more 'freedoms' (inside the framework of a totalitarian state) than they did in the West for most of the 20th century.
 
Why compare the UK with Ireland and Greece? You should compare it with France and Germany, did they need a bailout? Did those countries suffer because of the Euro? Quite the contrary, actually.

You didn't read what I said. It was the fact that we did NOT adopt the Euro that we survived. If we had adopted the Euro we would have ended up like Greece and Ireland.

Can you give me one example of EU legislation that impacted anyone's life in a negative way? Not attempts, actual legislation.

Membership is costing us billions a year of taxpayers money. That affects everyone. I believe an act has just passed that which enables the EU Parliment to over rule or by pass our Parliment. This handing over of more power will lead to more problems down the line. The fact that our current Government will not have a referendum shows that no one is clear what the out come will be. There are shouts for a referendum, so it is affecting people, and a meaningful amount.

Most of the immigrants are Asian and African. It's debatable whether the levels are absurd but one thing's for sure - the EU has nothing to do with this issue. Unless of course the Polish bother you, do they? Are the Germans and the French also problematic? If so, how? Please explain clearly why you think Polish, German and French people working freely in the UK, is a problem.

Again you are just making stuff up. Where did I say I have a problem with Polish / French / German people coming here? I have, and quite specifically, said I do not have a problem with immigration. What I do have a problem with is the levels of mass immigration and being a part of the EU has made it easier for EU members to come here. This will only increase as more members join the EU. I feel more of an Australian approach would be just, but difficult whilst in the EU.

Where are these experts? Link?

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100020456/ten-reasons-to-leave-the-eu/

He's been through it al land seen it all.

I asked you because I knew you don't have a basis and instead you have anecdotal evidence, vague references and half-truths. If I'm wrong I will apologise, provided you show the examples/links I've asked for.

Just because you don't agree with me, doesn't mean I am 'wrong' or views have no basis. I don't think either of us can sit there and say the other is 'wrong', when in fact these are our own views.
 
Of course it matters because the socialists like labelling all the political opponents right wing in order to marginalise them and associate them with bad states from the past, as i have already explained.

elmarko interpretation makes no sense what so ever. He contradicts himself and clearly doesn't know his right from his left.

He thinks libertarianism is right wing and also nazism. Its ridiculous. This is obviously just the socialists or big governments way of framing all their political opponents as racists and if you can't see that then you are obviously just culprit of this very problem.

They (labour and pro eu and pro communism groups) need to stop labelling their political opponents right wing. Just because a party has a policy of anti-mass-immigration does not mean that they are right wing. As a party ukip are pro government and pro socialism, just to a different degree than labour, therefore they are just as left as labour and just because of one policy does not mean they can now be associated with nazism and racism.

UKIP are being labelled as racist/xenophobic/homophobic/sexist because the party has attracted a significant number of 'bad eggs'. It has nothing to do with whether or not they are labelled Left, Right or spinning in circles. If your members are regularly in the papers for making racist, xenophobic, homophobic and sexist remarks, you're going to get a bad reputation.

It's a bit like the Toff label that the Conservatives can't seem to shake, or New Labour's reputation for sleaze. It didn't come from nowhere.
 
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There is a reason this mask became a meme.

I always thought it funny that they used a Guy Fawkes mask in that film, as he wasn't actually anti-government just anti-that-monarch, in fact he was trying to ensure Britain remained a monarchy instead of becoming a democracy.

I guess that's more example of labelling gone wrong lol.
 
I was being sarcastic, you don't know your left from your right.
Then you really can't read. I specifically said that libertarianism isn't left or right wing - you then say I think it's right wing & Nazism.

Either your trolling or incredibly stupid.

Seems spot on to me.

I liek equality, but at the same time believe in personal responsibility, so tend to be very liberal in terms of things like drugs policies, and hate entitlement / compensation culture. Do what you want (within reason) but don't blame everyone else for everything. But yes, I'm all capitalist when it comes to the economics side of things.
I thought so (glad I'm not completely off mark!).

It's a view I can meet in common ground with (shared views on social issues) - it also highlights how fundamentally poor the whole 'left-ring' dynamic is - as to really define a political viewpoint in a way to have any meaning you need to split the social policy to the economic one & the authoritarian/libertarian aspect.
 
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