ISIS and Islamic militants - discussion

Dj_Jestar said:
I think you need to see the bigger picture.

Global Muslim population: 2,100,000,000.

IS members: 30,000.

That's a very low representation of "Muslims".

Does every Englishman share responsibility for Jimmy Saville and chums?
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Where did you get that 30k figure from? Wikipedia estimates their strength at more like 80k-90k but that's only those who are actually fighting in Iraq and Syria. They have considerable support in other countries including the UK.

It's not about responsibility here, it's about tolerating and allowing unpleasant and undesirable behaviour take root and flourish within your environment. On Jimmy Saville it's true that his behaviour was tolerated by the establishment and so the people who knew or had grounds for suspicion and did nothing (especially the police) are now facing some tough questions and the system is being changed so that hopefully another Saville situation will not happen in future.
 
That video does nothing to answer anything. It's a shouty woman ignoring the question posed to her, and responding with ad hominen.

Gabriel Brigitte. The "radical islamaphobe" (that's a quotation from the NYT found on Wikipedia) that pulls numbers out of her bum.
 
scorza said:
Where did you get that 30k figure from? Wikipedia estimates their strength at more like 80k-90k but that's only those who are actually fighting in Iraq and Syria. They have considerable support in other countries including the UK.

It's not about responsibility here, it's about tolerating and allowing unpleasant and undesirable behaviour take root and flourish within your environment. On Jimmy Saville it's true that his behaviour was tolerated by the establishment and so the people who knew or had grounds for suspicion and did nothing (especially the police) are now facing some tough questions and the system is being changed so that hopefully another Saville situation will not happen in future.
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From CIA estimates from the other month. I'm not surprised they have changed. :)

So Saville et al is not the responsibility of the entire English culture. Yet you (and others) are demanding the entire Muslim faith/culture/whatever take responsibility of IS and other extremist groups that are a tiny subset?
 
Dj_Jestar said:
"those people" are "members of those communities." I didn't post it as a quotation, just a phrase.

You've made much more of a judgement than that. You've judged that the actions they have already taken are not enough - so you have directly contradicted your point that that judgement is better left for people within that community. So again.. what actions are you expecting? Or what actions would be enough to satisfy your expectations?
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In that case I'm not one of "those people" as I don't live in a Muslim community. I wasn't saying that because I'm not really in a position to make a judgement on one particular issue relating to a community I'm not a member of, then I'm not in a position to make any judgements at all. The reason why people who live in those communities are in a better position to make such judgements is that they know the area, the mosques, the community centres, the people and ultimately it's they who are directly affected when their loved ones go off to fight for Islamic State.

However it's quite clear that Britain has a problem with Islamic extremism - the attacks of 7th July 2005, Lee Rigby, Behead all those who insult Islam, Anjem Choudray, Jihadi John etc. I just think burying my head in the sand about these issues won't make them go away.
 
Dj_Jestar said:
From CIA estimates from the other month. I'm not surprised they have changed. :)

So Saville et al is not the responsibility of the entire English culture. Yet you (and others) are demanding the entire Muslim faith/culture/whatever take responsibility of IS and other extremist groups that are a tiny subset?
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I'm saying they need to take responsibility for driving Islamic State out of their communities, because they're in the best position to do so and ultimately they are detrimentally affected by Islamic extremism in their communities.
 
Dj_Jestar said:
So Saville et al is not the responsibility of the entire English culture.
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No, it was the responsibility of the cultural marxists endemic of the media and politics and they need to have their heads on the blocks as well. The same people that allowed 1400 girls to get raped in Rotherham and a 14 year old who has been murdered because their fascist "rubbing the Tories in multiculturalism" PC rubbish. They have blood on their hands. And people wonder why UKIP is so popular, the sooner we overthrow these reprobate idiots the better. liberal socialism is a disease and needs to be stamped out.
 
Dj_Jestar said:
That video does nothing to answer anything. It's a shouty woman ignoring the question posed to her, and responding with ad hominen.

Gabriel Brigitte. The "radical islamaphobe" (that's a quotation from the NYT found on Wikipedia) that pulls numbers out of her bum.
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Regardless I agree with the main point she was trying to make that history as shown the radical few can lead the agenda to disastrous effect.
 
Dj_Jestar said:
*cough* Christianity has the biggest history of bloodshed. *cough*
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don't really think that's true any more.

christian violence kinda stopped or at least died down to a low level while others carried on with much more modern means and massive casualties.

but please do back up your statement :)
 
Dj_Jestar said:
*cough* Christianity has the biggest history of bloodshed. *cough*
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You do realise that the Christians were actually fighting against somebody right? they weren't the only ones shedding blood. And before anyone mentions the Crusades, they were basically started as a result of Islamic expansion, namely gearing up to conquer Byzantium (it's now called Istanbul so I don't need to tell you who won) as prophesied by Muhammed. It takes two sides to war.
 
KillBoY_UK said:
Regardless I agree with the main point she was trying to make that history as shown the radical few can lead the agenda to disastrous effect.
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Which is my point. The Radical Few and not the entire culture are at fault. It is not correct to hold the entire culture to blame for the actions of a few - yet here we have several people demanding that "The Muslims" (note the distinct lack of differentiation from the radical few in that) sort it out.
 
robgmun said:
No, it was the responsibility of the cultural marxists endemic of the media and politics and they need to have their heads on the blocks as well. The same people that allowed 1400 girls to get raped in Rotherham and a 14 year old who has been murdered because their fascist "rubbing the Tories in multiculturalism" PC rubbish. They have blood on their hands. And people wonder why UKIP is so popular, the sooner we overthrow these reprobate idiots the better. liberal socialism is a disease and needs to be stamped out.
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So not the entirety of the English culture - my point. So why are people holding the entire Muslim culture responsible for the small subset that is the extremists?
 
Dj_Jestar said:
Which is my point. The Radical Few and not the entire culture are at fault. It is not correct to hold the entire culture to blame for the actions of a few - yet here we have several people demanding that "The Muslims" (note the distinct lack of differentiation from the radical few in that) sort it out.
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Doing nothing about the radical few is the problem but who is better seated to handle the radical few the quiet/do nothing majority or a outside group. Sadly what happens is people put there heads in the sand and pretend there's not an issue or simply do nothing about it.
 
KillBoY_UK said:
Doing nothing about the radical few is the problem but who is better seated to handle the radical few the quiet/do nothing majority or a outside group. Sadly what happens is people put there heads in the sand and pretend there's not an issue or simply do nothing about it.
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You're implying the rest of the muslim culture are "insiders".. no they aren't.
 
Dj_Jestar said:
You're implying the rest of the muslim culture are "insiders".. no they aren't.
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I never mentioned Muslims at all did I ?, I was making a point that the people in the best position to handle the radical few are members of the that community as a whole. And that is true for most cases of extremism, could be the English and the ELD for example or germans and the Nazi in the 20/30's.

If never ends well if a outside group/people/country and fix's a internal issue. Especially in the long run.

If you want to speak about extremest in the Muslim community would you not agree the best people tackle them are other members of the muslim/Islamic community ? Rather than Hindu's, Christians Mormons or Satanists?
 
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KillBoY_UK said:
I never mentioned Muslims at all did I ?, I was making a point that the people in the best position to handle the radical few are members of the that community as a whole. And that is true for most cases of extremism, could be the English and the ELD for example or germans and the Nazi in the 20/30's.

If never ends well if a outside group/people/country and fix's a internal issue. Especially in the long run.

If you want to speak about extremest in the Muslim community would you not agree the best people tackle them are other members of the muslim/Islamic community ? Rather than Hindu's, Christians morons or Satanists?
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You *implied* it. I'm not about to read out the definition of imply to you.

Are we to demand that the rest of the Christian church deal with the Westboro Baptist Church?
 
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