Shocking CIA torture report

grumpysculler · 11 Dec 2014 at 12:36

lemonade said:
OK SO DONT CRY WHEN THOSE FANATICS DECIDE TO USE THE SAME METHODS YOU SO APPROVE OF TO GAIN THEIR OWN DOMINANCE.

TBH these "enhanced interrogation techniques" should be used on anyone who uses capslock.

lemonade · 11 Dec 2014 at 12:44

Reading books printed in capslock should be made a torture technique.

Amnesia · 11 Dec 2014 at 12:48

phill1978 said:
there is a difference here it doesn’t matter which way you want to paint it, there are 'groups' or people who hate our way of life. Im not saying we didn’t start the fire, I haven’t said that once but either vote to change policy ( and accept the cost to the country ) or accept that this is the way that it is.

The poor sat in their mudhuts in Afghanistan who probably don't even own a t.v must be hating us right now. I mean who cares about the opression they live under or how they are to get their next meal...AMERICA AND UK we know nothing about you but we hate your way of life and want to live there with you lot.

phill1978 said:
and I agree torture is bad, but its simply 'less effective' .. it does work to a degree, sadly miscarriages of justice will happen in the most rarest of cases.

So if it is less effective than the more effective method...why use it ? why try and defend it ? who are these people who refuse to ship coffee and consoles to the west unless we torture bearded men from the east ?

balky12 · 11 Dec 2014 at 12:52

Amnesia said:
So if it is less effective than the more effective method...why use it ? why try and defend it ? who are these people who will refuse to ship coffee and consoles to the west unless we use torture bearded men from the middle east ?

Numerous reasons.

I'll start with one. Time restraints.

I think this terrorist knows something about an imminent attack. Do I

a) Try and become his new BFF, be kind and nice to him, hoping he tells me within the next hour or it might be too late.
b) start pulling his fingernails out one by one in a hope he tell me something...

Freakbro · 11 Dec 2014 at 12:53

phill1978 said:
there is a difference here it doesn’t matter which way you want to paint it, there are 'groups' or people who hate our way of life,

Honestly, that is just our own media spin to demonise the enemy. Standard propaganda practice in any 'war'.

They don't hate our 'freedoms' - what they hate is our foreign policies that have meddled in their countries for decades, if not hundreds of years. Supporting despot dictators and corrupt regimes for our own ends, while not caring about the subducation and killing of whole sections of the rest of the populous.

They hate the fact we go over there and kill their own sons, daughters, family members and just shrug it off to collateral damage.

I'm sure there are a few fervent nutcases out there who do ideologically hate western religion, the same as our own fervent christian nutters (see american bible belt) who have no tolerance for their views either, but the majority are fighting against us because we go over there and **** up their countries..

RoboCod · 11 Dec 2014 at 12:56

^yup, pretty much the case.

Amnesia · 11 Dec 2014 at 13:03

balky12 said:
Numerous reasons.

I'll start with one. Time restraints.

I think this terrorist knows something about an imminent attack. Do I

a) Try and become his new BFF, be kind and nice to him, hoping he tells me within the next hour or it might be too late.
b) start pulling his fingernails out one by one in a hope he tell me something...

So how many ticking time bombs did it stop ?

balky12 · 11 Dec 2014 at 13:07

Amnesia said:
So how many attacks were stopped which would have happened otherwise ?

Why are you asking questions that clearly no one apart from the CIA would actually know. Come on dude. I am all for a debate but be realistic.

Maybe none. Maybe one. Maybe 100's.

Maybe that one saved 1000's of lives. Who knows?

Like me asking how many people have been deterred from being a terrorist because they know if they get caught by the CIA horrific things will happen to them.

grumpysculler · 11 Dec 2014 at 13:13

Amnesia said:
So if it is less effective than the more effective method...why use it ? why try and defend it ? who are these people who refuse to ship coffee and consoles to the west unless we torture bearded men from the east ?

The same reason that government, organisations and companies don't follow evidence-based guidance.

There is an inherent belief that it must work and few people (most posters here included) are capable of stepping back and objectively assessing the evidence.

Gut instinct > evidence

Amnesia · 11 Dec 2014 at 13:20

balky12 said:
Why are you asking questions that clearly no one apart from the CIA would actually know. Come on dude. I am all for a debate but be realistic.

I am asking you because you put the ticking bomb scenario as an example of why torture should be used.
so i ask again....how many attacks have been stopped that could not have been stopped by other methods ?

balky12 · 11 Dec 2014 at 13:29

Amnesia said:
I am asking you because you put the ticking bomb scenario as an example of why torture should be used.
so i ask again....how many attacks have been stopped that could not have been stopped by other methods ?

Your inability to read astounds me.

Just to make this very easy for you;

can you catagorically say torturing prisoners has lead to no terrorist plots being stopped.

Of course you can not. Just in the same way I can not answer your question.

Now if you take it back to the original question you raised

'Why use a method that is less efficient.'

I simply answered with why the CIA might do that. The effectiveness of it is a completely different debate.

Sometimes I play with myself with my weaker hand. It's less effective. But it works.

wordy · 11 Dec 2014 at 13:30

Bald-Eagle22 said:
Absolutely tripe , do you really think the CIA or MI6/5 just turn up and say right you you and you come with me ? People are detained for a reason ,that may by association or direct evidence . I am sure there are micariges of justice but very very few.

I really don't under stand how naive some of you are , the world is a nasty place and we have people to deal with these nasty places and people . If you don't like it DO ONE.

You're great. Whatever you do don't stop posting.

smelly_legend · 11 Dec 2014 at 13:38

So us and them. Imagine the IRA were chilling in your area and the police decided to carpet bomb you next door neighbour and took your mum away for processing as r IRA was seen asking her for a haribo. Would you not want to seriously set about the police?

John40 · 11 Dec 2014 at 13:38

Amnesia said:
I am asking you because you put the ticking bomb scenario as an example of why torture should be used.
so i ask again....how many attacks have been stopped that could not have been stopped by other methods ?

You don't know neither do I but I would imagine quite a lot.

phill1978 · 11 Dec 2014 at 13:56

smelly_legend said:
So us and them.

that is the crux of the entire thing. For humans at least Its a winner takes all life and has been for thousands of years if not hundreds of thousands. You cant leave the fight and not join a side because sooner or later your stuff gets taken too ( unless you integrate with the winners ideas )

its the human condition, yes we can collaborate and create great things but somewhere down the line opposing ideas & the need for resources collide. Its not going to get any easier as the population continues to increase and our global system of consumerism collides with those that have resources we need and yet have opposing ideas.

the answer is diplomacy but for those who seek no dialogue and want to hurt others at any cost .. well, then I guess it comes down to torture,bullets and bombs.

its brutal but are the oppressors not the winners ?

Will21st · 11 Dec 2014 at 14:01

phill1978 said:
the answer is diplomacy but for those who seek no dialogue and want to hurt others at any cost .. well, then I guess it comes down to torture,bullets and bombs.

its brutal but are the oppressors not the winners ?

there is no diplomacy with Islam and it will come down bullets and bombs, if not all-out war.

phill1978 · 11 Dec 2014 at 14:08

Will21st said:
there is no diplomacy with Islam and it will come down bullets and bombs, if not all-out war.

but then how do you go to war against idea like that ? throw ipads and a free health service at them ? what do WE stand for in our modern secular ( anti-religion, god mocking, science based society )

as a culture we don't stand for anything together other than rampant consumerism. So the only way you can really attack it and go to war is by classifying it as a political ideology. you have to change the label and remove the religion from it or separate that part.

Also your not going to get a comfortable western, hipster strapping himself up to fight for google.. where as these people as you say will happily die for god.

dowie · 11 Dec 2014 at 14:18

balky12 said:
Why are you asking questions that clearly no one apart from the CIA would actually know. Come on dude. I am all for a debate but be realistic.

Maybe none. Maybe one. Maybe 100's.

Maybe that one saved 1000's of lives. Who knows?

Like me asking how many people have been deterred from being a terrorist because they know if they get caught by the CIA horrific things will happen to them.

There were no ticking time bomb scenarios.... we've just had a report on this.

Intelligence gained from torture is unreliable and if little value, it really isn't hard to understand.

Amnesia · 11 Dec 2014 at 14:24

balky12 said:
can you catagorically say torturing prisoners has lead to no terrorist plots being stopped.

Of course you can not. Just in the same way I can not answer your question.

I can say it's wrong
I can say it doesn't work as well as NOT torturing them
I can say torturing has proven to be less efficient
I can say it's less humane

and in favour of torture so far all you have done is made up this imaginery scenario where you play a balding nicholas cage and there is a ticking time bomb you must disarm

balky12 said:
Sometimes I play with myself with my weaker hand.

just make sure to clean afterwards .....

phill1978 · 11 Dec 2014 at 14:24

dowie said:
There were no ticking time bomb scenarios.... we've just had a report on this.

Intelligence gained from torture is unreliable and if little value, it really isn't hard to understand.

its still something. were not talking about getting £1 off a TV here or not having to pay shipping costs were talking about a 'small thing' like:

" that guy i talked too, he had a funny tattoo of something, perhaps a snake on his arm .. now please remove the clamps from my balls"

then they go around checking for those people who have something with any record they can find in that area of the world and send ops in on the ground or the shops to see if anyone was spotted or noticed with this detail etc..

Its a tiny piece of inconsequential evidence that may mean nothing that becomes the lead.

Im not defending torture at all, im really not. But its "less effective" rather than not useful at all.