DX12 CPU Performance Leaked, Way Faster Than DX11 – Threading Model Resembles AMD’s Mantle

Stanners · 16 Dec 2014 at 15:00

Rangerjr1 said:
Am i the only one getting sick of the same rehashed Mantle threads over and over and over and over? lol

Nope, But they are entertaining

Gregster · 16 Dec 2014 at 15:03

http://www.geforce.co.uk/hardware/technology/g-sync/supported-gpus

980
970
880M
870M
860M
850M
Titan Black
Titan
780Ti
780
770
760
750Ti
750
745 (oem)
650Ti Boost
660
690
680
670
660Ti

All support G-Sync and are all DX12 capable.

ohhh and I hope Mantle dies a quick death when DX12 is upon us. I hate how it has driven a divide among GPU owners. Propriatarary stuff is no good for the community

Nutella33 · 16 Dec 2014 at 15:12

Tonester0011 said:
Difference is AMD only have 30% of the market. 20% of AMD users have GCN. So unless my maths fail me only 6% of all users can benefit from Mantle.

http://jonpeddie.com/press-releases...uarter-intel-up-11.6-amd-slips-7-reports-jpr/

figures from last quarter. both are actually about 14% of the market. so your maths is failing you.

Gsync isn't in anyway comparable, so it's a rather pointless suggestion.

it is in the fact its a single company tech that relies on other companies to adopt. it will never be used on the other teams cards and costs the adopting company (monitor manufacturers) money to support (by buying the licenses) whilst its potential will only ever be half the graphics market. it is released but also has very low market share as the hardware that supports it is not dominant yet.

do you see the market similarities? thus, would gsync be written off just because of where its standing now?

GSYNC also benefits most if not all games

I'm not comparing how they work. I'm looking at the market potential which is the argument being put towards mantles limited share at the moment
"it will never support over half the market and currently has a low market share so its pointless"
That argument.

All support G-Sync and are all DX12 capable.

so exactly the same generation steps as mantle. your point? whats the % of monitors that support Gsync in the market?

Tonester0011 · 16 Dec 2014 at 15:15

Nutella33 said:
http://jonpeddie.com/press-releases...uarter-intel-up-11.6-amd-slips-7-reports-jpr/

figures from last quarter. both are actually about 14% of the market. so your maths is failing you.

.

Ahh yes, Intel the market leaders in discrete gpus lol

melmac · 16 Dec 2014 at 15:17

Tonester0011 said:
Difference is AMD only have 30% of the market. 20% of AMD users have GCN. So unless my maths fail me only 6% of all users can benefit from Mantle.

Not a clue about Gsync
I'm sure someone has a good idea on how many nvidia cards can utilise Gsync

Ayahuasca said:
GSYNC also benefits most if not all games

Martini1991 said:
Gsync isn't in anyway comparable, so it's a rather pointless suggestion.

Well done on completely missing his point. He wasn't saying anything good or bad about Mantle or GSync. He is just comparing them as new products that hope to develop further and become more widely used. That looking at their market share now is no indication of how good their adoption rate will be and doesn't always reflect how good or bad a product is.

ubersonic · 16 Dec 2014 at 15:18

Gregster said:
ohhh and I hope Mantle dies a quick death when DX12 is upon us. I hate how it has driven a divide among GPU owners. Propriatarary stuff is no good for the community

My thoughts exactly, I was against "the second coming of Glide" since it was first announced.

Martini1991 · 16 Dec 2014 at 15:19

melmac said:
Well done on completely missing his point. He wasn't saying anything good or bad about Mantle or GSync. He is just comparing them as new products that hope to develop further and become more widely used. That looking at their market share now is no indication of how good their adoption rate will be and doesn't always reflect how good or bad a product is.

No, I wasn't missing his point. His point is a complete fallacy, the point about monitors supporting Gsync marketshare (Which is absolutely tiny) is no reflection of anything really. In a comparison that's remotely similar it'd be Gsync capable graphics cards marketshare to the amount of Gsync enabled monitors (Since people would be producing monitors for that marketshare) in the same way you'd make a Mantle enabled game for AMD capable marketshare (Which even still isn't directly compareable, because making a monitor GSync is almost utterly relying on them to buy the product, which isn't the same as a Mantle enable game)

varkanoid · 16 Dec 2014 at 15:21

Glide was better than Directx though IMHO.

Nutella33 · 16 Dec 2014 at 15:25

Martini1991 said:
No, I wasn't missing his point. His point is a complete fallacy, the point about monitors supporting Gsync marketshare (Which is absolutely tiny) is no reflection of anything really.

apart from the fact just because it currently has a small market share doesnt mean it should be written off and that as time goes one such market share will increase given greater hardware choice and availability and hopefully increased market share? It is a direct and accurate comparison. any comeback other than "no its not" with no reasoning?

your edit >

because making a monitor GSync is almost utterly relying on them to buy the product, which isn't the same as a Mantle enable game

sure it is. mantle dev's have to judge the time is worth it, sign up to the mantle beta and spend money implementing it in response to a market that is saying "we want better performance".

In a comparison that's remotely similar it'd be Gsync capable graphics cards marketshare to the amount of Gsync enabled monitors

we can use that if you wish. I'll bet the numbers of Gsync monitors sold are much less than all the 6, 7, 8, 9 Cards sold. so that comparison of market share is just as low.

I'm not saying anything is good or bad but the current low market share and current half market limitation is not a reason to dismiss anything. The same applies to proprietary tech from both companies that requires a certain level of hardware and always has done.

Tonester0011 · 16 Dec 2014 at 15:28

If we build it they will come springs to mind.

Martini1991 · 16 Dec 2014 at 15:28

Nutella33 said:
apart from the fact just because it currently has a small market share doesnt mean it should be written off and that as time goes one such market share will increase given greater hardware choice and availability and hopefully increased market share? It is a direct and accurate comparison. any comeback other than "no its not" with no reasoning?

Because of the specifics it's not remotely the same as Mantle though, it's that simple. Comparing Mantle/Gsync marketshare is a fallacy, they're simply not comparable.

Gsync is also specific, it's demand of the tech that'll gain it marketshare. More/Newer GPU's only increases compatibility.

bru · 16 Dec 2014 at 15:33

Nutella33 said:
http://jonpeddie.com/press-releases...uarter-intel-up-11.6-amd-slips-7-reports-jpr/

figures from last quarter. both are actually about 14% of the market. so your maths is failing you.

it is in the fact its a single company tech that relies on other companies to adopt. it will never be used on the other teams cards and costs the adopting company (monitor manufacturers) money to support (by buying the licenses) whilst its potential will only ever be half the graphics market. it is released but also has very low market share as the hardware that supports it is not dominant yet.

do you see the market similarities? thus, would gsync be written off just because of where its standing now?

I'm not comparing how they work. I'm looking at the market potential which is the argument being put towards mantles limited share at the moment
"it will never support over half the market and currently has a low market share so its pointless"
That argument.

so exactly the same generation steps as mantle. your point? whats the % of monitors that support Gsync in the market?

Unfortunately, even ignoring all the billyhooks and just looks at the market potential, it still isn't a good comparison at all.
Lets just look at those markets shall we, monitors manufacturers very few, maybe a couple of hundred ( even though I had trouble thinking of more than 30) each with 20 or so models maybe some with a hundred or so.

Games industry, developers. Thousands if not tens of thousands, each with 5 or so games, some with many more than that.

So potential sample size from one is 4/5000 and the other is 100,000+

Not exactly a fair comparison is it.

melmac · 16 Dec 2014 at 15:40

andybird123 said:
The only games that have mantle so far are the ones that AMD have given millions of dollars to. Of the few games that have released usage stats, AMD mantle-capable GPU's make up less than 20% of the user base (even where AMD are giving away free copies of the game), it simply doesnt make any financial sense to support mantle when it isnt being bankrolled by AMD

That's a pretty sweeping statement. Can you please provide any evidence of this? Or is the fact that they paid money to EA/Dice for BF4 the only proof you have? If that's it, then it's pretty weak.

I look down through this thread and I see a lot of these statements from both sides. Nobody here knows when Microsoft started DX12, Nvidia people are saying it was 4 years, AMD people saying it was started after mantle. Both sides basing it off things that Nvidia and AMD said.

What a pointless argument.

Nutella33 · 16 Dec 2014 at 15:42

So potential sample size from one is 4/5000 and the other is 100,000+

Not exactly a fair comparison is it.

isn't that the beauty of percentages? I'd say there's only a few hundred game dev's of note as well though and they are the people mantle is reliant on gaining. I could go back to the old days of hardware Physx but then I would be accused of dragging up ancient history and attacking nvidia.

they're simply not comparable.

I've used your own suggested example of a comparable figure and the outcomes the same.

Gsync is also specific, it's demand of the tech that'll gain it marketshare. More/Newer GPU's only increases compatibility.

ha. so is mantle. If the demand is there for game dev's to use it and customers to benefit from (and if we can see the ones signing up to it, we can see it is in the pipeline), it will grow. More/Newer GPU releases from AMD will increase compatibility (which is part of the argument of not bothering with mantle, because only 20% of AMD's cards currently support it)

Its exactly the same argument.

melmac · 16 Dec 2014 at 15:52

Martini1991 said:
No, I wasn't missing his point. His point is a complete fallacy, the point about monitors supporting Gsync marketshare (Which is absolutely tiny) is no reflection of anything really. In a comparison that's remotely similar it'd be Gsync capable graphics cards marketshare to the amount of Gsync enabled monitors (Since people would be producing monitors for that marketshare) in the same way you'd make a Mantle enabled game for AMD capable marketshare (Which even still isn't directly compareable, because making a monitor GSync is almost utterly relying on them to buy the product, which isn't the same as a Mantle enable game)

Yes you did, and you are still missing it banging on about the different markets, etc etc. His point isn't anything to do with that.

And if you did get the point, then you are not arguing against what he was trying to say, you are arguing because he didn't use a good comparison?

Really?

bru · 16 Dec 2014 at 15:55

Nutella33 said:
isn't that the beauty of percentages?

Well yes it is, Mantle is in what 5/6 games. This very site has 5 Gsync monitors for sale, so he numbers are not really that different and yet one has a sample size of a few thousand, the other a hundred thousand.
So percentage wise one sucks and the other sucks massively.

unless of course you are using your idea of

Nutella33 said:
I'd say there's only a few hundred game dev's of note

So your only going to include the numbers you like, ok well that limits things a bit more.
There are people on here who don't like Mantle or Gsync so now we are now down to one group with 0% and the other group with 0%. I suppose at least that way it is more of a fair comparison. :rolleyes:

opethdisciple · 16 Dec 2014 at 15:57

Is Mantle still Beta?

andybird123 · 16 Dec 2014 at 16:05

melmac said:
That's a pretty sweeping statement. Can you please provide any evidence of this? Or is the fact that they paid money to EA/Dice for BF4 the only proof you have? If that's it, then it's pretty weak.

I look down through this thread and I see a lot of these statements from both sides. Nobody here knows when Microsoft started DX12, Nvidia people are saying it was 4 years, AMD people saying it was started after mantle. Both sides basing it off things that Nvidia and AMD said.

What a pointless argument.

Evidence of what? Payments to devs?
All of the mantle games have been included as giveaways and have had AMD logos sponsoring the games - hardware vendors sign deals with game devs where they give cash for copies, it is widely know that this is how the industry works. You are asking me for evidence that the sky is blue.

Rroff · 16 Dec 2014 at 16:08

flopper said:
you guys do understand the developers asked for this?

So what happened then?

Nutella33 · 16 Dec 2014 at 16:08

So your only going to include the numbers you like, ok well that limits things a bit more.

well do you have figures suggesting there are thousands of professional game dev companies releasing titles? I've only seen figures of a thousand professional at max. and more than 5 devs have signed up to its production in the future.

This very site has 5 Gsync monitors for sale,

so it would be how many they have sold of these 5 monitors vs every other monitor sold since...the 6 series? just to have a cut off point as thats the last that supports gsync.

So percentage wise one sucks and the other sucks massively.

I agree. both percentages would suck, but thats my point. its the start of adaptation for both techs so its not expected to be dominant. yet the main argument against mantle atm is low uptake/compatibility that makes it worthless and a "fail" when this simply is not true. It's going through the same stages as all other proprietary hardware tech does.