ISIS and Islamic militants - discussion

OldCoals said:
Surprise surprise, Anjem Choudary is in the video.

As a paid agent of the state, does he have to declare the income to the DWP?
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Maybe he doesn't get paid, maybe the security services have evidence of him noncing kids. There does seem to be a bit of a correlation between Islamic fundamentalism and being a nonce - it seems a lot of these kids who go off to fight for Islamic State do so because of all the raping they'll be able to do.
 
Interesting news article here that doesn't seem to have hit the headlines over here - see muslamic news algorithm ;)

‘Patriot’ Terrorist Frames Muslims With Quran Bomb
The Georgia man who planted a bomb was willing to see innocents die so that people would blame Muslims. And he called himself a ‘patriot.’
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http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...terrorist-frames-muslims-with-quran-bomb.html

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There is a difference between a nutjob planting a bomb in a park and a nutjob blowing a bomb up during a public event in a urban area. But I guess you know that. Now if he'd have blown himself up on the NY metro then I wager it would have got greater coverage like when the supremacists commit crimes.
 
zoomee said:
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The problem with this is that 'proper' muslims always say they have nothing to do with ISIS which they don't but Sharia is fundamental to the Koran so in a roundabout way they sort of agree with it. I don't have time for major religious groups Christian, Islam, Judaism they are are all a bunch of self centred hypocrits who want to force their warped opinion of a god on everyone else. The world would be better off without them.
 
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sven256 said:
Longer version there for you.

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Makes me sick. This comment nailed it.

Its funny how they want to destroy democracy and freedom, when its exactly those two very things that allows them to demonstrate and protest on the streets of london...without democracy and freedom the voices of us all would never be heard...its quite ironic
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Castiel said:
I was not referring to the arguments why I thought they were apostates. Rather that others, specifically Islamic scholars do and have made such statements, members or former members of The Ulema in Saudi Arabia being the most notable, Sa’d Al-Shathri and the aforementioned Abdulaziz Al al-Sheikh both being considered as having the sufficent authority to make such judgements. It's why I asked the question about heresy that you have missed...as I do not know your own opinion as you haven't given it and have yet to answer the question I asked, it is becoming a one way conversation until you say whether you accept Ulema as having sufficent knowledge or not. (I accept the nature of Islam means that opinions will vary)

Also in response to any Muslim being apostate simply for not following general tenets such as alcohol etc, there is a tonne of jurisprudence on this and you cannot apply such a broad picture on it.

For example, Whereas one act may countenance apostasy, another may not. As I said it isn't really for any Muslim to say if we go by the Quran alone, which technically would make ISIS apostates by default but to say lapses in everyday practices is equal to burning other Muslims or the various other atrocities ISIS commit regularly with regard to whether an Ulema would consider them apostate is not a very realistic assumption or basis for counter.

However, back to the basic point, Islamic juris isn't straight forward this is clear, however basic arguments can be easily made based on historical precedents and more complex ones can be made using juris as to the heretical nature of ISIS, as I pointed out, opposing arguments can also be made. Dependent upon various considerations of the individual ideologues, sect, and politicisation would significantly impact acceptance of either. Such is the nature of Islam and its decentralised system that doesn't share an authoritative clerical system like we see in Catholicism for example.

As far as the arguments I made, they were intentionally vague for the reasons I gave, saying they are ambiguous is a little unfair. If you wish I can (perhaps tomorrow) offer a far longer, more specific account of how someone may justify ISIS being heretical...using Figh and historical precedent. I specifically didn't do this and said as much to forestall such a retort, but if you feel it's necessary because of ambiguity I can do so. (I could probably do the opposite as well)

But at the end of the day, you can reasonably justify both points of view...as in whether ISIS are, by action, Apostate as AK22 says or as you say they are Muslim regardless unless they say otherwise, but it's spurious to suggest seriously that a lapsing Muslim would have an equal exposure to apostasy as someone who burns other Muslims for example.
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Do you not think this is a major problem? It feels like a hydra situation, whereby any act can be dismissed as not being "true islam"?
 
sports_brah said:
Do you not think this is a major problem? It feels like a hydra situation, whereby any act can be dismissed as not being "true islam"?
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The thing is though, if they believe they are acting in the name of Islam, does that not count sufficiently?

Otherwise it really does just become the pathetic 'true Scotsman' argument.
 
Dis86 said:
The thing is though, if they believe they are acting in the name of Islam, does that not count sufficiently?

Otherwise it really does just become the pathetic 'true Scotsman' argument.
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Do most people blame christianity for breivik's actions then?

Thought not - What amazes me is people's double standards when it comes to one religion over the other.
 
zoomee said:
Do most people blame christianity for breivik's actions then?

Thought not - What amazes me is people's double standards when it comes to one religion over the other.
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We've had the discussion already about his motives. It's also worth pointing out to you yet again he is a one off. An outlier. A freak.
 
Oh and as for what I came here to say, mass rallies in Tunis against the attack on the museum and extremism in general. Nice! Good to see such a united condemnation by the people of Tunisia!
 
zoomee said:
Do most people blame christianity for breivik's actions then?

Thought not - What amazes me is people's double standards when it comes to one religion over the other.
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I don't regard myself to be double standards with regards to religions, so I must be a minority. I perceive every one of them to be equally the same sheer horse crap. What is astounding is how someone is willing to kill over these stories.
 
Well Al shabab seem to have gone and made a mess of things in Kenya. Apparently 150 beheaded, specifically targetting Christians.
So this tiny minority of a religion seems to be screwing up a fair few countries. That's Nigeria a complete mess. Iraq. Somalia. Yemen. And Kenya. Can't be such a tiny minority after all...
 
Yes, this morning they said 15 shot, now it seems they have been systematically killing everyone else, around 140-150. Horrible.
Al Shebab on the run from towns in Somalia, due to Africa forces, now attack anywhere they like.
Not good.

-Not a Happy Easter message to the Christians in Kenya
Like a suicide bombing in Mecca during Hage.
 
Moses said:
They think around that number died - or was the running death toll earlier... but where have you read they're beheaded them all? I've seen stuff about beheadings, but I'd be surprised if they'd beheaded 150. I'd see it as more likely a massive chunk of them died in the initial attack, then in the 'rescue'.
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Yeah you're right, read more sources and it seems they didn't do it to all. Majority were shot or died when the vests went off. Still an utterly barbaric and senseless act.
 
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