Poll: General election voting round 5 (final one)

[elmarko]

I disagree with you both, I think it's more of a grey area than people on the left and right make out.

Do you seriously believe that everyone who is poor is only so due to "society" and have no responsibility themselves? I don't, but likewise not everyone is rich because of their 'hard work' either.

Some people are rich because they were aspirational, entrepreneurial or just came up with a great idea, others are rich because they were born into wealth and had the right connections.

Some people are poor because they are lazy, celebrate their 'working class' status or don't want to put any extra effort in, others are poor because they don't have the finance or connections that recognise their endeavour.

People who think it's all or nothing are asinine whatever their political persuasion.

While this all sounds nice in theory, you are missing the quite obvious 500 foot concrete elephant in the room.

In our standard social model for rich people to exist poor people must also, not everybody can be rich due to how the distribution of wealth works.

 

[Glaucus]

Most are disadvantaged through parents. Which then leads to attitudes that disadvantage themselves. So many people go I can't get a job, then you find out their cv is crap, they're only looking within like 3 miles if their house and only fir jobs they want.
If in was like that I would be jobless as well. Thankfully parents taught me some proper attitudes towards life.

We really need to do more for bad parenting, I don't know what. But professional psychologists and other such people must have ideas.

A very small part is society, the whole university thing, you can do what ever you want.
No you can't some people are intelligent enough, some don't have the motivation. It is simply a lie to say you can do what ever you want and push people towards university. When it fails which it does often people get disheartened and give up, or have a sense of entitlement.

 

[McBain]

Some are disadvantaged by circumstance, some by choices. Society doesn't disadvantage people.

Agreed.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

Lib Dem all the way to the top, baby!

 

[SpeedFreak]

Some are disadvantaged by circumstance, some by choices. Society doesn't disadvantage people.

What does society do to cause someone to be a drug addict? Spend their money gambling, smoking or drinking? fail to gain any qualifications or provide skills worth purchasing? Have kids they cant afford or at too young an age? These are failings of society, they are failings of individuals.

We should help those disadvantaged by circumstance and support those disadvantaged by choice to start making better ones. Neither of those problems is best solved by getting people dependent on state handouts as the solution.

great minds lol

 

[elmarko]

What does society do to cause someone to be a drug addict? Spend their money gambling, smoking or drinking? fail to gain any qualifications or provide skills worth purchasing? Have kids they cant afford or at too young an age? These are failings of society, they are failings of individuals.

The factors related to this are actually very well understood.

Social structure differs from nation to nation, which is why addiction, joblessness & criminality vary so highly globally. If your fetish like view of individualism was actually correct related to this factors (it isn't) then not only would there not be such a huge discrepancy geographically but I wouldn't be able to predict outcomes based off external factors so easily.

Not that I take your views seriously, they are all focused around further ingratiating yourself with material wealth - hardly a objective standpoint.

great minds lol

Simple minds perhaps, or in the case of Dolph I'd be more inclined to believe either blinded by ideology or intentionally dishonest.

 

[PermaBanned]

Some are disadvantaged by circumstance, some by choices. Society doesn't disadvantage people.

What does society do to cause someone to be a drug addict? Spend their money gambling, smoking or drinking? fail to gain any qualifications or provide skills worth purchasing? Have kids they cant afford or at too young an age? These are failings of society, they are failings of individuals.

We should help those disadvantaged by circumstance and support those disadvantaged by choice to start making better ones. Neither of those problems is best solved by getting people dependent on state handouts as the solution.

Wait, what exactly do you think "disadvantaged by circumstance" means?

 

[thep02]

While I think Nigel Farage is an odious bigot who has a profoundly malign influence on British politics, I will say this for him: at least he has the cahones to campaign face-to-face with the public and even talk with people protesting him.

It's a shame that the big party leaders have shied so far away from being challenged by public or press in this campaign.

Ditto there's a lot to admire about the man politics aside and if nothing else he's given impetus to the battle for real democratic reform in the eu.

 

[Mr Jack]

Some are disadvantaged by circumstance, some by choices. Society doesn't disadvantage people.

How can you not see the glaring contradiction between these statements?

 

[elmarko]

A pertinent quote on the subject.

"Many seem to have absolutely no awareness of how fortunate one must be to succeed at anything in life, no matter how hard one works. One must be lucky to be able to work. One must be lucky to be intelligent, physically healthy, and not bankrupted in middle age by the illness of a spouse.

Consider the biography of any "self-made" man, and you will find that his success was entirely dependent on background conditions that he did not make and of which he was merely the beneficiary.

There is not a person on earth who chose his genome, or the country of his birth, or the political and economic conditions that prevailed at moments crucial to his progress. And yet, living in America, one gets the distinct sense that if certain conservatives were asked why they weren't born with club feet or orphaned before the age of five, they would not hesitate to take credit for these accomplishments.

Even if you have struggled to make the most of what nature gave you, you must still admit that your ability and inclination to struggle is part of your inheritance. How much credit does a person deserve for not being lazy? None at all. Laziness, like diligence, is a neurological condition."

 

[Mr Jack]

A pertinent quote on the subject.

Who is it a quote from?

 

[SpeedFreak]

Simply minds perhaps, or in the case of Dolph I'd be more inclined to believe either blinded by ideology or intentionally dishonest.

You mean simple minds yes?

Having been on both side of this reality I can say that a bit of support, a strong work ethic and self responsibility are the most important factors in improving one's situation.

 

[elmarko]

Who is it a quote from?

Sam Harris

 

[MrMoonX]

It is not this black and white. Some people are disadvantaged by society and some put themselves at a disadvantage through poor decisions in life. That is not really a point for debate, just a reflection of reality.

The point for discussion is therefore around how to support disadvantaged people and present them with realistic opportunities to improve their situation. Those demonstrating a will and effort to improve their situation should be encouraged to do so and employment should always be more attractive than any choice to do nothing.

People need to be empowered to improve their own situation, but our society doesn't empower the poor, it punishes, labels and demonises them. The fact that so many have to go to food banks or the DWP is a form of disempowerment

 

[SpeedFreak]

People need to be empowered to improve their own situation, but our society doesn't empower the poor, it punishes, labels and demonises them. The fact that so many have to go to food banks or the DWP is a form of disempowerment

I would argue that society demonises a certain "type" of poor but certainl not all the poor. What I will say is that in the eyes of Joe public there is a huge overestimation of the number of these people in society which suits a certain agenda.

 

[elmarko]

You mean simple minds yes?

Having been on both side of this reality I can say that a bit of support, a strong work ethic and self responsibility are the most important factors in improving one's situation.

Support is external & self responsibility/work ethics are both learned behaviours or ones we inherited by chance, both of which can be metaphorically beaten out of somebody as a result of life experiences.

 

[Dolph]

Wait, what exactly do you think "disadvantaged by circumstance" means?

Disabilities, poor starts in life, that sort of thing. The two things can also go hand in hand, poor parenting or a difficult childhood both disadvantages the individual and also increases the likely hood of making poor life choices.

However, life is what you make of it. Our systems don't encourage or support people to improve their lot, in fact they often work directly against it. That is what needs to change.

 

[elmarko]

Disabilities, poor starts in life, that sort of thing. The two things can also go hand in hand, poor parenting or a difficult childhood both disadvantages the individual and also increases the likely hood of making poor life choices.

However, life is what you make of it. Our systems don't encourage or support people to improve their lot, in fact they often work directly against it. That is what needs to change.

Give me an example of a nation which is doing this better by increasing overall poverty or reducing welfare. I say this because the nations which are doing it better, have a far more generous welfare state - lower crimes rates & a happier population.

Welfare traps do need to be addressed, but is there a shred of evidence to suggest that punitive measures will achieve that?. The same can be achieved via others means.

 

[cjbagnall]

A pertinent quote on the subject.

"Many seem to have absolutely no awareness of how fortunate one must be to succeed at anything in life, no matter how hard one works. One must be lucky to be able to work. One must be lucky to be intelligent, physically healthy, and not bankrupted in middle age by the illness of a spouse.

Consider the biography of any "self-made" man, and you will find that his success was entirely dependent on background conditions that he did not make and of which he was merely the beneficiary.

There is not a person on earth who chose his genome, or the country of his birth, or the political and economic conditions that prevailed at moments crucial to his progress. And yet, living in America, one gets the distinct sense that if certain conservatives were asked why they weren't born with club feet or orphaned before the age of five, they would not hesitate to take credit for these accomplishments.

Even if you have struggled to make the most of what nature gave you, you must still admit that your ability and inclination to struggle is part of your inheritance. How much credit does a person deserve for not being lazy? None at all. Laziness, like diligence, is a neurological condition."

Couldn't agree with you more. I do get sick of the tory view that if your poor your lazy, some of the poorest in our country are the hardest workers. The the vast majority of people who are on benefits are retired or in employment.

 

[MrMoonX]

I would argue that society demonises a certain "type" of poor but certainl not all the poor. What I will say is that in the eyes of Joe public there is a huge overestimation of the number of these people in society which suits a certain agenda.

Well in the last five years the media and government has labelled all benefit claimants as scrongers

Does anyone think places like the job centre actually help people find work? They don't they process, they label and they sanction