*** The 2015 Gym Rats Thread ***

[mrthingyx]

The curls are for hamstrings . Instead of front squats I do the most badass lift a person can do - deadlifts.

Since I am doing deadlifts, I can't do RDLs for hamstrings, otherwise I will overwork my traps. I ain't about that imbalanced musculature life, nomsayin?

I detest machine work, so I hate doing leg curls, but have to for balance.

Please tell me you mean leg extensions...? *Please let it be true...*

And deadlifts are great, but you are working with a very screwed up kinetic chain if you are doing leg extensions because they are not a compound exercise and do not involve anything other than quads in isolation. If you said "I just leg press," then I could almost forgive you as they are like squats... But just not as awesome.

 

[a03dugga]

Hey guys,

So last year I weighed 150kg and went on a health bender after a motherly "intervention" and have now gotten down to a respectable 88kg for my body weight. Mostly done by diet, eating good whole foods and cutting saturates and junk food out. As well as plenty of cardio, i.e. running, walking, rowing and some light weight to help with keeping my muscles from being burnt away.

I want to starting lifting and developing my figure now but I don't know where to start.
Whenever I get to the gym and I see the weight floor, It seems so crowded and I get a bit nervous to actually get stuck in. I'm seeing my trainer at the gym for a reassessment on Monday to discuss this further so hopefully that will help with setting goals and what not.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[icecold]

I don't like front squats or RDLs, so I do deadlifts and leg curls instead

U wot m8

The curls are for hamstrings . Instead of front squats I do the most badass lift a person can do - deadlifts.

Since I am doing deadlifts, I can't do RDLs for hamstrings, otherwise I will overwork my traps. I ain't about that imbalanced musculature life, nomsayin?

HUGH WATMEIGHT

 

[Dreamforger]

The curls are for hamstrings . Instead of front squats I do the most badass lift a person can do - deadlifts.

Since I am doing deadlifts, I can't do RDLs for hamstrings, otherwise I will overwork my traps. I ain't about that imbalanced musculature life, nomsayin?

I detest machine work, so I hate doing leg curls, but have to for balance.

What? You're worried about muscular imbalance in traps from doing deadlifts and RDL's? Surely if anything you'd be more concerned (which you shouldn't be) about working your hamstrings and your lats way more than your traps, and even then I can't imagine you'd be doing enough to develop a trap imbalance. Most importantly of all, how would you even get a trap imbalance from doing RDL's?

 

[FutileBreadMachine]

Please tell me you mean leg extensions...? *Please let it be true...*

And deadlifts are great, but you are working with a very screwed up kinetic chain if you are doing leg extensions because they are not a compound exercise and do not involve anything other than quads in isolation. If you said "I just leg press," then I could almost forgive you as they are like squats... But just not as awesome.

U wot m8

HUGH WATMEIGHT

What? You're worried about muscular imbalance in traps from doing deadlifts and RDL's? Surely if anything you'd be more concerned (which you shouldn't be) about working your hamstrings and your lats way more than your traps, and even then I can't imagine you'd be doing enough to develop a trap imbalance. Most importantly of all, how would you even get a trap imbalance from doing RDL's?

lol, you guys. The program is designed by a guy who knows a lot more about how to get stronger safely without screwing up balance than I do, so I trust his research. Here is the program variant I follow:
Workout A
Squat 3x5
Bench 3x5
Pendlay Rows 3x8
Facepulls 3x10
Curls 2x10

Workout B
Deadlifts 3x5
OHP 3x5
Chinups 3x10
Leg Curls 3x8
Ab work
Tricep pressdowns 2x10

There is no way I could do RDLs after DL and OHP on B day, and then I would have 2 upward pulls from the floor in the program (DL and RDL). At the moment the main upper body work is balanced with:
1 vertical push (OHP)
1 vertical pull (Deadlifts)
1 horizontal push (Bench press)
1 horizontal pull (Pendlay rows)

The chins are more for accessory work, but I believe they are added to help with posture and then you have a pull upwards as well as the pull from the floor in deadlifts.

I know front squats assist back squats a lot and are GOAT for quads, but I want to get a 3 plate deadlift then maybe I will switch to front squats + RDL for a change (and I hate leg curls anyway). I'm deadlifting 120kg 3x5 now, so almost at 140kg.

 

[mrthingyx]

No, you are missing the point: you are effectively not working half your legs because you are not squatting.

You have taken the routine prescribed by somebody who knows more than you about working out... And changed half of it to suit your perspective... Which is problematic.

And let us not talk of traps again.

 

[Delvis]

RDLs will not give you massive traps, if you're developing your traps through rdls then god knows how you're doing them.

Doing deadlifts and rdls won't kill you, at all.

Chins help with posture? How exactly?

And front squats are fantastic, if you don't want to do them then I'd rather be doing split squats or Bulgarian split squats, doing leg curls makes no sense? Its a Hamstring exercise???

If you're THAT intent on getting a three plate deadlift, then do a deadlift specific programming, or just lift and it will come. You can probably pull a 140 now tbh.

 

[FutileBreadMachine]

No, you are missing the point: you are effectively not working half your legs because you are not squatting.

You have taken the routine prescribed by somebody who knows more than you about working out... And changed half of it to suit your perspective... Which is problematic.

And let us not talk of traps again.

Mate, squats are the first exercise on A day.... I do low-bar ATG squats. Tuesday I squatted 100kg 3x5, tomorrow I will squat 105kg 3x5.

Swapping Front squats + RDL for DL + leg curls is an acceptable substitution taken from the F5 creator himself:

Acceptable Substitutions
Reverse Flies-Face pulls (face pulls will follow 5lb per week progression)
Tricep pressdowns-overhead extensions, skull crushers…etc. (basically any tricep isolation exercise)
Lat Pulldowns-Any form of pull/chin up. You’ll need a dip belt to add weight. (You need a pull from above your head)
Incline Bench-Overhead Press
Pendlay Rows-Any horizontal pull to the chest with a wide grip and flared elbows.
Bench-Decline bench, dips (leaning forward) You’ll need a dip belt to add weight
Front Squat/RDL-You have to swap both for a Deadlift and a leg curl. This isn’t an either or kind of substitution.
Front Squat-Paused back squats

RDLs will not give you massive traps, if you're developing your traps through rdls then god knows how you're doing them.

Doing deadlifts and rdls won't kill you, at all.

Chins help with posture? How exactly?

And front squats are fantastic, if you don't want to do them then I'd rather be doing split squats or Bulgarian split squats, doing leg curls makes no sense? Its a Hamstring exercise???

If you're THAT intent on getting a three plate deadlift, then do a deadlift specific programming, or just lift and it will come. You can probably pull a 140 now tbh.

I searched the F5 thread for the exact quote, but I believe it was trap development which would be overemphasized by DL+RDL. If you think about it, the starting position for RDLs (upright holding the bar) is the lockout position for DL, so I would be working out the same set of muscles with 2 compound exercises (I know the actual movement is to target hamstrings on RDL, but you have the same lockout position in both lifts).

The progression for lower body (squats and deadlifts) is 5kg per week, so you can't get much faster than that (Starting Strength has 5kg per workout, but then you only do 1x5 deadlifts).

Edit: OK regarding chins, I thought they were to pack on more mass on the back to counter bench press, which strengthens the pecs which pulls the shoulders forward into the "neanderthal hunch", but it looks like they target lats and biceps more. The counter for bench press is rows, since they move in the same plane of motion.

 

[UltimateBadger]

I did mean DL's as my 'big 3' - once I've gotten a bit further on with RDL's I was gonna switch to normal DL's as I reckon my grip is likely to give out at some point doing 3x8 (rather than 1/2/3x5 DL's)

 

[icecold]

Deadlifts aren't really a vertical pull, and RDL's are definitely not. I have absolutely no idea why he suggests substituting FS/RDL for DL and hammy curls, because you're going from a nice quad/hamstring balance to hamstring only. It would even make more sense without the curls.

Also, adding mass to your back to counteract benching doesn't really work in isolation, you need to stay on top of mobility.

 

[Rids]

Hey guys,

So last year I weighed 150kg and went on a health bender after a motherly "intervention" and have now gotten down to a respectable 88kg for my body weight. Mostly done by diet, eating good whole foods and cutting saturates and junk food out. As well as plenty of cardio, i.e. running, walking, rowing and some light weight to help with keeping my muscles from being burnt away.

I want to starting lifting and developing my figure now but I don't know where to start.
Whenever I get to the gym and I see the weight floor, It seems so crowded and I get a bit nervous to actually get stuck in. I'm seeing my trainer at the gym for a reassessment on Monday to discuss this further so hopefully that will help with setting goals and what not.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

I feel your pain, was in a very similar situation myself although my weight loss wasn't quite as impressive!

I'm not anywhere near the level of the most of the guys on this board, I'm really just a beginner to the whole weight lifting thing but I'll go with the advice I was given which seems to be working out reasonably well for me so far...

Stronglifts 5 x 5

Whack that into google, read up and go from there. Its the perfect beginner program as long as you can get your forms sorted.

With regards to the intimidation factor of the weights area at the gym, that is something that I had to come through also. The way I got around it was to start off hitting the gym at odd hours, when I knew it would be close to empty. That way I could get my weight session in without feeling embarrassed that people were looking at me (even though they wont be, people are there to work out)

Hopefully one of the more experienced guys will jump in with some better advice, but fingers crossed that'll be enough to get you started.

 

[Delvis]

Mate, squats are the first exercise on A day.... I do low-bar ATG squats. Tuesday I squatted 100kg 3x5, tomorrow I will squat 105kg 3x5.

Swapping Front squats + RDL for DL + leg curls is an acceptable substitution taken from the F5 creator himself:




I searched the F5 thread for the exact quote, but I believe it was trap development which would be overemphasized by DL+RDL. If you think about it, the starting position for RDLs (upright holding the bar) is the lockout position for DL, so I would be working out the same set of muscles with 2 compound exercises (I know the actual movement is to target hamstrings on RDL, but you have the same lockout position in both lifts).

The progression for lower body (squats and deadlifts) is 5kg per week, so you can't get much faster than that (Starting Strength has 5kg per workout, but then you only do 1x5 deadlifts).

Edit: OK regarding chins, I thought they were to pack on more mass on the back to counter bench press, which strengthens the pecs which pulls the shoulders forward into the "neanderthal hunch", but it looks like they target lats and biceps more. The counter for bench press is rows, since they move in the same plane of motion.

You're clearly set in your ways, so have fun. I'd advise you, to take advise of some people on this forum who have been training for several years, competed, shifted several tons per workout and fixed themselves when things have snapped up.

 

[FutileBreadMachine]

You're clearly set in your ways, so have fun. I'd advise you, to take advise of some people on this forum who have been training for several years, competed, shifted several tons per workout and fixed themselves when things have snapped up.

The program I am following is stickied on the biggest bodybuilding site in the world. In the 15 months since it was created, it's had close to 500K views and 5K replies. If it was rubbish it would have been torn to shreds by now and forgotten. Instead it's the most recommended program on there for beginners by Mods and old timers who have been lifting for years (even over the usual Stronglifts and Starting Strength).

It's nothing ground-breaking, just a simple A,B,A,B... linear progression program using compound exercises the same way they have been used for decades. The only difference is he's added rotator cuff work and instead of the usual power cleans and squats on the B-day he put front squats and RDLs for quads and hamstring development, which would not otherwise develop as well doing just back squats.

It's acknowledged in the thread that this is the best version of the programming, and he just allowed the deadlift + leg curl substitution because every 5 posts someone asks if they can do conventional deadlifts instead of RDLs.

The creator has also made other programs for intermediate and advanced lifts, as well as to correct kyphosis and lordosis (all put together in this thread "Fierce 5" Comprehensive Program List).

I'm not saying this is the greatest program every made, there are many ways to get strong, we just have to choose one that we will actually stick to. I don't want to sound like some know-it-all either, I am still a noob, I have only been lifting for 18 months and my lifts are pathetic. I'm sure most of the guys in this thread know way more about training than me, but after going through a bro-split, Starting Strength and AllPro, I've decided on this one being the one for me.

I just try to educate myself by reading articles posted by much more knowledgable people than I, since I don't want to do something like ruin my shoulders or my hips by doing a program which is unsound. Based on that, I believe this is a good program for me personally, so I am going to run it until I am intermediate and then I'll switch to 5/3/1.

 

[Dreamforger]

The program I am following is stickied on the biggest bodybuilding site in the world. In the 15 months since it was created, it's had close to 500K views and 5K replies. If it was rubbish it would have been torn to shreds by now and forgotten. Instead it's the most recommended program on there for beginners by Mods and old timers who have been lifting for years (even over the usual Stronglifts and Starting Strength).

It's nothing ground-breaking, just a simple A,B,A,B... linear progression program using compound exercises the same way they have been used for decades. The only difference is he's added rotator cuff work and instead of the usual power cleans and squats on the B-day he put front squats and RDLs for quads and hamstring development, which would not otherwise develop as well doing just back squats.

It's acknowledged in the thread that this is the best version of the programming, and he just allowed the deadlift + leg curl substitution because every 5 posts someone asks if they can do conventional deadlifts instead of RDLs.

The creator has also made other programs for intermediate and advanced lifts, as well as to correct kyphosis and lordosis (all put together in this thread "Fierce 5" Comprehensive Program List).

I'm not saying this is the greatest program every made, there are many ways to get strong, we just have to choose one that we will actually stick to. I don't want to sound like some know-it-all either, I am still a noob, I have only been lifting for 18 months and my lifts are pathetic. I'm sure most of the guys in this thread know way more about training than me, but after going through a bro-split, Starting Strength and AllPro, I've decided on this one being the one for me.

I just try to educate myself by reading articles posted by much more knowledgable people than I, since I don't want to do something like ruin my shoulders or my hips by doing a program which is unsound. Based on that, I believe this is a good program for me personally, so I am going to run it until I am intermediate and then I'll switch to 5/3/1.

Nobody is arguing whether or not it's a good program, the program itself hasn't been criticised, nor has it's maker, nor the structure, nor the additional exercise variants that you might not see if you were to do SS/SL as if you were to do the program in black and white. The only thing that has been mentioned is the worry of developing muscle imbalances in your traps if you were to do RDL's and Deadlifts, and also the substitution of front squats and RDL's for deadlifts and leg curls. To many of us that seems like an odd substitution and tbh if you can do front squats but want to do normal deadlifts then do exactly that as it will keep the muscle progress far closer to how the program was originally written, compared to removing front squats and rdls for deadlifts and hamstring curls. Another logical soluition would be leg press, or some form of squat variant (barbell - high bar or low bar with different stances if you wish, or dumbbell such as split squats, bulgarian split squats and on) to replace front squats and to do deadlifts to replace romanian deadlifts.
Anywho, as Mr. Delvis said, you seem to be set in your ways so best of luck to you. If you decide to create a training log or post how you get on in here I'm sure that many of us will be interested as to how you progress

 

[FutileBreadMachine]

Nobody is arguing whether or not it's a good program, the program itself hasn't been criticised, nor has it's maker, nor the structure, nor the additional exercise variants that you might not see if you were to do SS/SL as if you were to do the program in black and white. The only thing that has been mentioned is the worry of developing muscle imbalances in your traps if you were to do RDL's and Deadlifts, and also the substitution of front squats and RDL's for deadlifts and leg curls. To many of us that seems like an odd substitution and tbh if you can do front squats but want to do normal deadlifts then do exactly that as it will keep the muscle progress far closer to how the program was originally written, compared to removing front squats and rdls for deadlifts and hamstring curls. Another logical soluition would be leg press, or some form of squat variant (barbell - high bar or low bar with different stances if you wish, or dumbbell such as split squats, bulgarian split squats and on) to replace front squats and to do deadlifts to replace romanian deadlifts.
Anywho, as Mr. Delvis said, you seem to be set in your ways so best of luck to you. If you decide to create a training log or post how you get on in here I'm sure that many of us will be interested as to how you progress

OK, since I was curious about the logic of all this, and I'm not clued up enough on programming to answer, I posted in the thread for his reasoning and he said:

Day A is quad heavy from the squats. I don't expect any beginner (or intermediate honestly) to low bar well enough to make it ham dominant. Since A is quad heavy B needs to be ham heavy. Front squats and DL would make B day quad heavy. Leg press and DL would make it quad heavy. RDL and DL would make it too low back heavy.

A lot of people overlook the quad work in deadlifts. It isn't all hams, glutes and low back. It's basically a half squat (overwhelmingly quads) and a rack pull added together. Rack pulls are primarily a back exercise...not a ham builder. Don't get me wrong, they work hamstrings quite a bit (varies greatly dependent on form obviously), but the quad work can't be overlooked. That's why they are paired with leg curls.

Add on to that the propensity many people have with lordosis and kyphosis and you can see why I programmed everything to be slightly more ham dominant and slightly more back dominant. Obviously when I say more back dominant I mean slightly more than 2:1 pull to push balance when comparing overall back volume to pressing volume. The balancing act continues into the low back to ab balance...etc.

I actually have a log on bb.com, but my lifts are pretty poor, so I don't think it will be a very interesting read for anyone unless they are running the same program to compare. My best numbers are (all around 75kg 174cm):
Squats 100kg 3x5
Bench press: 70kg 5,5,4
OHP: 47.5kg 3x5
Deadlifts: 120kg 3x5
Pendlay rows: 57.5kg 3x5

My plan is to run this for 2 more months to get:
Squats 120kg 3x5
Bench press: 80kg 3x5
OHP: 60kg 3x5
Deadlifts: 140kg 3x5
Pendlay rows: 70kg 3x5

Then I will start a new log for 5/3/1.

 

[Freefaller]

If you're quad dominant when doing deadlifts you're setting it up wrong, or you're doing things like trap bar deads - which are fine, but are not a proper deadlift.

Quads do contribute to deadlifts they assist with knee extension which is effectively the initial drive off the floor. Your quads are in a very strong position as are your glutes in setup when you're doing deadlifts because your knee will typically bent around 70 degrees or so.

However the movement is more comparable to a quarter squat (maybe half squat at best) from the starting position at your knee and hip joint. As such your quads (and glutes) should not be that taxed when deadlifting. Glutes do come into it on lock out as your drive your glutes to perform the lockout.

I would say learning to squat as early as possible is critical and is helps with mobility, knee strength and learning to open the hips up and drive through with glutes and keeping core tight and using adductors well.

However, you're following someone else's programme - so go for it, and good luck.

 

[a03dugga]

I feel your pain, was in a very similar situation myself although my weight loss wasn't quite as impressive!

I'm not anywhere near the level of the most of the guys on this board, I'm really just a beginner to the whole weight lifting thing but I'll go with the advice I was given which seems to be working out reasonably well for me so far...

Stronglifts 5 x 5

Whack that into google, read up and go from there. Its the perfect beginner program as long as you can get your forms sorted.

With regards to the intimidation factor of the weights area at the gym, that is something that I had to come through also. The way I got around it was to start off hitting the gym at odd hours, when I knew it would be close to empty. That way I could get my weight session in without feeling embarrassed that people were looking at me (even though they wont be, people are there to work out)

Hopefully one of the more experienced guys will jump in with some better advice, but fingers crossed that'll be enough to get you started.

Hey, thanks for that. I'm going to give that a proper read, I like the formatting and it seems easy to follow. Gym tomorrow, so will give it another go.

 

[FutileBreadMachine]

If you're quad dominant when doing deadlifts you're setting it up wrong, or you're doing things like trap bar deads - which are fine, but are not a proper deadlift.

Quads do contribute to deadlifts they assist with knee extension which is effectively the initial drive off the floor. Your quads are in a very strong position as are your glutes in setup when you're doing deadlifts because your knee will typically bent around 70 degrees or so.

However the movement is more comparable to a quarter squat (maybe half squat at best) from the starting position at your knee and hip joint. As such your quads (and glutes) should not be that taxed when deadlifting. Glutes do come into it on lock out as your drive your glutes to perform the lockout.

I would say learning to squat as early as possible is critical and is helps with mobility, knee strength and learning to open the hips up and drive through with glutes and keeping core tight and using adductors well.

However, you're following someone else's programme - so go for it, and good luck.

Yeah, people tend to drop their hips too much with deadlifting and then it becomes like a squat from the floor, with quads being used more. I feel deadlifts more in my back at the start, and then in my hamstrings and glutes as I ram my hips into the bar.

 

[Delvis]

Yeah, people tend to drop their hips too much with deadlifting and then it becomes like a squat from the floor, with quads being used more. I feel deadlifts more in my back at the start, and then in my hamstrings and glutes as I ram my hips into the bar.

I assume not lower back?

Crack on buddy, your numbers are not terrible at all at the moment, get your deadlift up more and the ratios will even out.

Concerning 5/3/1, I enjoyed the program and did it probably on the same numbers you are on now - However don't overcomplicate things, just plug away as you are then look at 5/3/1 possibly later in the year if you really want to go down that route.

 

[FutileBreadMachine]

I assume not lower back?

Crack on buddy, your numbers are not terrible at all at the moment, get your deadlift up more and the ratios will even out.

Concerning 5/3/1, I enjoyed the program and did it probably on the same numbers you are on now - However don't overcomplicate things, just plug away as you are then look at 5/3/1 possibly later in the year if you really want to go down that route.

Hehe, no I would be worried if it was my lower back. Actually, the most painful thing for my lower back was when I used to do SLDLs. Could never quite get it right so that my lower back didn't take the strain, but was only doing light weight there.

I found this cool calculator for 5/3/1 which I will use when the time comes: https://blackironbeast.com/5/3/1/calculator