Court Case: woman tricked into sex with a woman pretending to be a man

[Angilion]

[..] If this woman were to run down the street topless she would be arrested under indecency laws for showing her breasts [..]

That's not covered under indecency laws. One of the very broad "disturbing the peace" type laws, possibly, but not indecency laws.

Indecency laws require something much more seriously wrong in the eyes of the law and society, such as intentionally causing alarm or distress. Which, in practice, requires failing to cover your penis because only penises are seen as being bad.

Even then, it's not necessarily considered to be covered under indecency laws. Even that guy who's been jailed loads of times for rambling whilst naked hasn't been convicted under indecency laws but for breach of the peace and contempt of court.

It's true that the legal system isn't very flexible in immediately ignoring the legal situation when a prisoner says it's wrong, but your example is a bit wrong.

 

[Angilion]

It's a bit different for you though lafemme. You admitted to being bisexual (or whatever fancy name it is now) in the last thread. Therefore ofc you will not see gender as an important aspect.

Nothing wrong with that mind you. However you have to appreciate a lot of people do not have your sexual orientation.

I do and I still think they're wrong.

I also think that a sex change is a real thing...and I still think they're wrong.

So from my point of view the sex of a person I loved (or simply wanted to have sex with, since this applies to fun sex as well as love relationships) doesn't really matter. Also, since I think that a sex change is a real thing I think that if a person has completed a sex change they are the sex they changed to anyway. What sex they were in the past wouldn't matter to me anyway, unless I travelled back in time.

But I don't demand that everyone else has the same point of view and deride them as insecure and bigoted if it does matter to them.

For the same reason, I tell people I'm bisexual. I think it doesn't matter and shouldn't matter, but it does matter to some people and I think it wouldn't be right for me to not tell them something which I know might be important to their consent. Because I think informed consent is very important and for informed consent there must be knowledge.

 

[Rofflay]

What two people do in a bedroom i could not give a crap. It is when it comes out of the bedroom and into the minds and eyes of people who are yet to even realize what sexuality is.


Mummy why are those two men kissing in public? Can you see why people have issues with this like Russia? In Russia this is why they banned gay propaganda not because they do not want to give people equal rights. But because we do not yet know why people are not born 100% straight. And i honestly do not know how to balance this and equal rights.


I do not think anyone knows? I would be aggressive personally if i thought my child was being influenced like i wrote above. I think we need to respect different sexuality, But people of different sexuality need to also balance respect and thier push for equality in public and in the media. Children are not stupid and they see and know a lot more than thier parents allow.

 

[Angilion]

Hmm you know the romans did that yes, But the Greeks also had a thing about having a normal life with a wife and child yet i read they would have a young boy who they would have relations with until he would come of age and act as a mentor. It would be completely forbidden to do so when the boy got older. These people and thier genes spread all over the world through the hellinistic period. And i wonder then did the same happen in isolated places like the Americas? Or Africa? Or Asia? Did the Chinese do the same? And do the levels of people who are not straight increase in Europe or elsewhere?

I've no idea. If you find any answers, please let me know. The last question seems impossible to answer since the only potential answers are self-reporting (extremely prone to lying caused by external factors) or observation (extremely small sample set).

Also if that did infact happen and caused it to become more and more common, The fact that modern immigration trends mean most homosexual people from Africa and the Middle East will come to Europe and further add Genes into the pool like the Greeks. Meanwhile the levels would then fall in Africa and the Middle East. This is just a theory it is way too much for me to take in but i would like to know the answer.

That would be plausible if the genetic variants required for homosexuality are uncommon and the scale of migration is large enough. A few million people (most of whom wouldn't be homosexual, given that there are many other reasons for migrating to Europe) wouldn't make much difference in a population of 750 million people. If it's a matter of uncommon combinations of common variations of genes, homosexual people migrating to avoid persecution wouldn't make any long-term difference to the prevalence of homosexuality in any area.

Could it even be something the mothers do while the child is in the womb?

It's technically possible, but there's no evidence that it is and it seems very unlikely to me given the number of people involved. Conditions in the womb during gestation can have very many effects on the developing foetus, including subtle ones, but what on earth could mothers of homosexual people be doing whilst pregnant that mothers of heterosexual children aren't doing? Particularly since in many cases they're the same woman and sometimes even the same pregnancy!

I would not be suprised to see in the future Europe going back to how the Greeks and Romans behaved with sexual relations being highly diverse.

I hope so. In some respects, anyway. Not so much the pederasty of ancient Greece. I don't think that was a good idea. Although I'm not sure how much was true and how much was Greek city-states badmouthing other Greek city-states. There was a common element of Greekness, but they were seperate places and were often in conflict and sometimes to the point of outright war.

 

[Angilion]

What two people do in a bedroom i could not give a crap. It is when it comes out of the bedroom and into the minds and eyes of people who are yet to even realize what sexuality is.


Mummy why are those two men kissing in public? Can you see why people have issues with this like Russia? [..]

Yes, but my answer is probably very different to yours. I think people have issues with it in some places because they have been conditioned to do so. The same way that people in some places had even more serious issues with "inter-racial" relationships.

I'll use the same phrasing you did to illustrate my point.

A note for the hard of thinking: this is not my point of view.

Mummy, why is that white woman kissing a black man? Can you see why people had issues with this like apartheid South Africa or segregationist USA?



I would have no trouble answering the question from your hypothetical child: "Some men love other men in the same way that most men love women". Which would no doubt result in half a dozen more questions, but that's to be expected from children about pretty much everything.

 

[lafemmefatale]

What two people do in a bedroom i could not give a crap. It is when it comes out of the bedroom and into the minds and eyes of people who are yet to even realize what sexuality is.

I agree. I don't mind straight people but when they start shoving their straightness in other peoples faces and acting like being straight is some kind of normal, its just not right.

 

[Rofflay]

I agree. I don't mind straight people but when they start shoving their straightness in other peoples faces and acting like being straight is some kind of normal, its just not right.

See this is the part of the debate i do not like, Because your lobby has put so much pressure on people to feel they are attacking bi or gay people when they say mother nature rules supreme and decided being straight was normal.


And now everyone who says this is the bad guy i bet. Why can you not just accept you are unique? Does that make you feel better instead of someone saying you are abnormal? You are a minority in the 7 billion people on the planet what does that tell you? And please do not go raving off on one because i simply do not know any other way to express this to you. You are getting your equal rights, But you will never ever have the majority of the population say being straight is not normal. Never ever ever it is a pipe dream even if it is in jest.

 

[lafemmefatale]

So when did you choose to become straight?

 

[spoffle]

So when did you choose to become straight?

Oh lawd. You just cannot hold a debate. Why do you even bother trying?

 

[lafemmefatale]

Just trying to get my head around how if one person can be born straight, one born gay, one bi and one trans, it's perfectly natural yet one gets to be normal at the expense of the others? That just doesn't make sense.

 

[Rofflay]

See everyone feels like walking on egg shells around her too, I hate that and it is not equality at all. The only thing i would personally ask from non straight people is to keep it in private away from young eyes until they know themselves they are gay.

How did people come out before the LGBT movement? Or did they not exist? If they expect to be able to force quality that way by having equal public affection rights they will be waiting at least 300 years i reckon. And for the record i was born straight into a dominant mother family, I had an overly and trumatic school years where i was bullied by a feminist and made to do women craft. Yet i still turned out 101% straight.


As i said mother nature intended to make me part of the majority, I could not help that like you could not help being BI. Which shows my point that things that are the majority in nature are obviously deemed normal. If nature made us all non straight we would suffer the biggest population collapse known to humanity. So that is why the majority population deems what is normal and what is not imo.

 

[lafemmefatale]

Let's look at your logic of the majority in nature being 'normal'. Go find me the breakdown of global population split between men and women, it certainly isn't a perfect 50/50 split so that means that the gender who is slightly under 50% is abnormal, right?

 

[Rofflay]

No not at slighty under 50%, It would need to be around 5-8% which i would deem is the global non straight population in numbers. But as i said many times i want to see studies done and wth is going on with it, Why it happens and what % of the population is not straight.


I do not see that happening in my lifetime because i think people are simply not interested.

 

[spoffle]

Let's look at your logic of the majority in nature being 'normal'. Go find me the breakdown of global population split between men and women, it certainly isn't a perfect 50/50 split so that means that the gender who is slightly under 50% is abnormal, right?

No, because it doesn't work like that. You appear to be under the impression that "normal" is a synonym of "right/good".

Why are you fixating so much on normality when in the real world it doesn't actually matter?

 

[Rofflay]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_sex_ratio

Nearly a 1:1 sex ratio also. Infact it shows that there are more females in Western democractic countrys than the Islamic ones and China where women are devalued compared to men. So actually it seems men are slighty inferior? Or women are getting too many rights? Jokes 1:1 ratio sounds about right. Therefor neither is abnormal in nature or superior in birth rates.

 

[spoffle]

See everyone feels like walking on egg shells around her too, I hate that and it is not equality at all. The only thing i would personally ask from non straight people is to keep it in private away from young eyes until they know themselves they are gay.

You make it sound like you think children need to be shielded from gay people being gay in case they catch the gay or something.

How did people come out before the LGBT movement? Or did they not exist? If they expect to be able to force quality that way by having equal public affection rights they will be waiting at least 300 years i reckon. And for the record i was born straight into a dominant mother family, I had an overly and trumatic school years where i was bullied by a feminist and made to do women craft. Yet i still turned out 101% straight.

The hell is women craft?

 

[spoffle]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_sex_ratio

Nearly a 1:1 sex ratio also. Infact it shows that there are more females in Western democractic countrys than the Islamic ones and China where women are devalued compared to men. So actually it seems men are slighty inferior? Or women are getting too many rights? Jokes 1:1 ratio sounds about right. Therefor neither is abnormal in nature or superior in birth rates.

That isn't how normal/abnormal works

 

[Rofflay]

You make it sound like you think children need to be shielded from gay people being gay in case they catch the gay or something.

They are suggestable and may think it normal, They should be free to find out for themselves not be introduced to it. So do not be silly. And if the arguement is gay people are born that way what would be the problem? they would still end up going down the same path anyways?

The hell is women craft?

Basically in P4 i was forced to learn knitting and sewing. I could not do it and thus she kept giving me homework to do knitting and picking out all the boys for detention. Yup this was the standard of my primary school before it was identifed as being one of the worst local schools around. When the knitting homework arrived, My ma knitted a full jumper and i brought it in and she flew off the lid and brought in my family and there was a massive row about why boys where spending hours learning to sew and knit. Shocking? I think so when it has nothing to do with an education. But she was a rampant feminist after all.

 

[spoffle]

They are suggestable and may think it normal, They should be free to find out for themselves not be introduced to it. So do not be silly. And if the arguement is gay people are born that way what would be the problem? they would still end up going down the same path anyways?





Basically in P4 i was forced to learn knitting and sewing. I could not do it and thus she kept giving me homework to do knitting and picking out all the boys for detention. Yup this was the standard of my primary school before it was identifed as being one of the worst local schools around. When the knitting homework arrived, My ma knitted a full jumper and i brought it in and she flew off the lid and brought in my family and there was a massive row about why boys where spending hours learning to sew and knit. Shocking? I think so when it has nothing to do with an education. But she was a rampant feminist after all.

So you really are saying that children should be shielded from gay people to make sure they don't catch it... wow that's really really special.

I'm still unsure as to how making clothing is legitimately a "women craft" and that it's wrong for boys to do it.

Next you'll be saying girls shouldn't play with Lego and toy cars in case they catch"the butch"...

 

[Six6siX]

They should be free to find out for themselves not be introduced to it

In the interest of equality, should we also shield children from straight people so they don't have a preconceived notion of their own sexuality and find out what they are for themselves?