ISIL, ISIS, Daesh discussion thread.

[Zuban]

But the quran is only one book, written by one man in his own lifetime. It is meant to be taken literally, and it is not full of symbolism or vague analogies. It is mostly direct commands. Of course the quran contains contradictory statements, just like other religious books, but the quran itself provides the reader with a way to know what to do with the contradictions.

History tells us that its a second hand account, varying from things written on whatever was at hand, to recited from memory, from sayings, versus and memory's of people of the time, compiled into a book after the event, and is subject to the failing of the human race.

Chinese whispers isn't a saying without meaning, add in the various factors of perception and bias, and its meaning is worthless, when you understand this its obvious why we are still arguing about it, its worthless as a source of anything except place in history.

 

[manoz]

History tells us that its a second hand account, varying from things written on whatever was at hand, to recited from memory, from sayings, versus and memory's of people of the time, compiled into a book after the event, and is subject to the failing of the human race.

Chinese whispers isn't a saying without meaning, add in the various factors of perception and bias, and its meaning is worthless, when you understand this its obvious why we are still arguing about it, its worthless as a source of anything except place in history.

There's no point knowing the translation of a lot the verses if you haven't learned the historical aspect of it by knowing what happened at the time. It was revealed over a period of 23 years then complied during a different caliphate. Some verses didn't make it, the one about stoning was said to have been eaten by a goat.

 

[Zuban]

There's no point knowing the translation of a lot the verses if you haven't learned the historical aspect of it by knowing what happened at the time. It was revealed over a period of 23 years then complied during a different caliphate. Some verses didn't make it, the one about stoning was said to have been eaten by a goat.

Many of us struggle what the point in knowing any of it is, what is the point?

 

[manoz]

Many of us struggle what the point in knowing any of it is, what is the point?

Honestly, realistically, it'll take a whole lot of explaining. If you are genuinely interested then go to this page http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Quran-O..._UL160_SR107,160_&refRID=1BST7M2W0PSWER14QQ01 and click Look Inside on the picture, there's a pretty decent introduction. If your more curious the library/islamic centre is best bet.

 

[Dicehunter]

Many of us struggle what the point in knowing any of it is, what is the point?

As a Christian, Jew, Hindu or Sikh, It is good to read to know your enemies mindset.

 

[Zethor]

As a Christian, Jew, Hindu or Sikh, It is good to read to know your enemies mindset.

Who is the enemy in this case? Islam?

 

[RaohNS]

Pot, kettle, black

The Bible is a collection of writings from various authors written sometimes hundreds of years apart, with parables, advice and dreams, all collected together into one book.

But the quran is only one book, written by one man in his own lifetime. It is meant to be taken literally, and it is not full of symbolism or vague analogies. It is mostly direct commands. Of course the quran contains contradictory statements, just like other religious books, but the quran itself provides the reader with a way to know what to do with the contradictions.

So when most Westerners hear Jihadists quoting violent passages from the quran, and then peaceful Muslims quoting peaceful passages, they interpret that the way they would if someone was quoting the Bible. They think to themselves, “Oh, there must be many different and contradictory passages, like there are in other religious books, so Muslims can pick and choose what they like, and justify whatever actions they want to take”. But the quran is nothing like that. There is no picking and choosing. It says very explicitly and in no uncertain terms that a muslim must not alter or ignore any part of its very clear and direct message, or they will burn in a fiery torment forever.

TL;DR All islam is pure.

Not true. In fact many original Koranic stories were lost as much of it was things told. The Koran despite claims it has never been altered has in fact. The 2nd caliphate iirc depicts the version of the Koran now.

Mohammed was a tyrant and genocidal paedophile.... In today's terms. Even his wives commented that it is strange how quickly Allah grants Mohammed whatever he wants.

We have the issue with Islamic cultures today that do take texts literally and as I am certain has been said in this thread, Muslims should aspire to be like Mohammed. So when ISIS start beheading people, driving out Christians and enslaving the populace, using women as nothing more than breeders I would say they are following pretty close to what Mohammed did and preached.

I still recall the hadith of him attacking Jews and making the men and boys (children) lie over the edge while he cut off their heads. The wives and daughters, sisters and so forth of these poor souls doubtless held in bondage for their entire lives. What a cruel and evil sadistic person... And he is the epitome of Islam? Either Muslims are lacking in compassion, IQ or both but that is not someone I could ever support... So when people moan about Hitler being evil, in some respects Hitler was just a 20th century Mohammed minus he didn't endorse mass rape and paedophilia. One of them is extremely bad to follow... The other is not.

Today that is the problem with Islam. It is not the word of god but those of a crazy egocentral homophobe who used fear and oppression as one of his many evil antics into apotheosis.

 

[scorza]

This is a really interesting thread, but can we try and keep it on topic please? We have to respect the rules of the forum and at the moment we're drifting dangerously close to violating the new 'safe space' rules.

 

[RaohNS]

Agreed.

Anything that when confronted with the truth causes a violent or threatening response is unbased. Truth will always be the enemy of tyranny and when the truth is spoken of Islamic ideology it must on many (most) counts mean it is a tyrannical religion because it (the religion itself) even has its own blasphemy laws

 

[Deleted member 66701]

Agreed.

Anything that when confronted with the truth causes a violent or threatening response is unbased. Truth will always be the enemy of tyranny and when the truth is spoken of Islamic ideology it must on many (most) counts mean it is a tyrannical religion because it (the religion itself) even has its own blasphemy laws

You mean like we did until 7 years ago?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law_in_the_United_Kingdom

Scotland and Northern Ireland still have active (if disregarded) blasphemy laws.

 

[Zethor]

Today that is the problem with Islam. It is not the word of god but those of a crazy egocentral homophobe who used fear and oppression as one of his many evil antics into apotheosis.

The problem is not Islam the problem is ignorance. The people who are blowing themselves up are not Islamic scholars, they are marginalised youth who feel betrayed by our society. Most of these people have criminal backrounds and not much to live for. They turn violent because they don't understand Islam and instead blindly follow an extremist ideology.

The islamophobia that's rampant on these forums has the same root, ignorance. The only reason why you people aren't blowing yourselves up is that you aren't marginalised, you feel you belong to a society

 

[kitch9]

Pot, kettle, black

The Bible is a collection of writings from various authors written sometimes hundreds of years apart, with parables, advice and dreams, all collected together into one book.

But the quran is only one book, written by one man in his own lifetime. It is meant to be taken literally, and it is not full of symbolism or vague analogies. It is mostly direct commands. Of course the quran contains contradictory statements, just like other religious books, but the quran itself provides the reader with a way to know what to do with the contradictions.

So when most Westerners hear Jihadists quoting violent passages from the quran, and then peaceful Muslims quoting peaceful passages, they interpret that the way they would if someone was quoting the Bible. They think to themselves, “Oh, there must be many different and contradictory passages, like there are in other religious books, so Muslims can pick and choose what they like, and justify whatever actions they want to take”. But the quran is nothing like that. There is no picking and choosing. It says very explicitly and in no uncertain terms that a muslim must not alter or ignore any part of its very clear and direct message, or they will burn in a fiery torment forever.

TL;DR All islam is pure.

The delusion is strong in this one...

 

[kitch9]

The problem is not Islam the problem is ignorance. The people who are blowing themselves up are not Islamic scholars, they are marginalised youth who feel betrayed by our society. Most of these people have criminal backrounds and not much to live for. They turn violent because they don't understand Islam and instead blindly follow an extremist ideology.

The islamophobia that's rampant on these forums has the same root, ignorance. The only reason why you people aren't blowing yourselves up is that you aren't marginalised, you feel you belong to a society

They have a scholar or dozen telling them what to do.

 

[Zethor]

They have a scholar or dozen telling them what to do.

No they don't. Declaring yourself a scholar does not mean you are one.

 

[dowie]

Pot, kettle, black

The Bible is a collection of writings from various authors written sometimes hundreds of years apart, with parables, advice and dreams, all collected together into one book.

But the quran is only one book, written by one man in his own lifetime. It is meant to be taken literally, and it is not full of symbolism or vague analogies. It is mostly direct commands. Of course the quran contains contradictory statements, just like other religious books, but the quran itself provides the reader with a way to know what to do with the contradictions.

So when most Westerners hear Jihadists quoting violent passages from the quran, and then peaceful Muslims quoting peaceful passages, they interpret that the way they would if someone was quoting the Bible. They think to themselves, “Oh, there must be many different and contradictory passages, like there are in other religious books, so Muslims can pick and choose what they like, and justify whatever actions they want to take”. But the quran is nothing like that. There is no picking and choosing. It says very explicitly and in no uncertain terms that a muslim must not alter or ignore any part of its very clear and direct message, or they will burn in a fiery torment forever.

TL;DR All islam is pure.

Mohammed was illiterate....

 

[StriderX]

No they don't. Declaring yourself a scholar does not mean you are one.

Yes it does, its hardly a protected status now is it.

 

[kitch9]

No they don't. Declaring yourself a scholar does not mean you are one.

Lol.

Because that's how it works.

 

[Zethor]

Yes it does, its hardly a protected status now is it.

I declare that I, Zethor, an Islamic scholar. Therefore, I am right and you are wrong in this context.

Handy logic you've got there, eh?

 

[StriderX]

Seems about right.

 

[dowie]

The problem is not Islam the problem is ignorance. The people who are blowing themselves up are not Islamic scholars, they are marginalised youth who feel betrayed by our society. Most of these people have criminal backrounds and not much to live for. They turn violent because they don't understand Islam and instead blindly follow an extremist ideology.

The islamophobia that's rampant on these forums has the same root, ignorance. The only reason why you people aren't blowing yourselves up is that you aren't marginalised, you feel you belong to a society

this is quite a naive view often voiced by Islamic apologists who want to deny there is any issue in Islam and blame some other factors

the fact is that plenty of terrorists are well educated and come from stable middle class backgrounds

the recent shooting in the US for example was a professional middle class couple not marginalised youth