** Star Wars Episode VII - SPOILERS WITHIN **

FoxEye said:
Except, you know, that neither Luke nor Anakin could use the major force powers like mind trick, pull, jump without training.
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I don't believe we ever saw them try. Only when Luke tries to lift the x-wing and fail...but that was due to lack of believe. Rey believed in the power of the force straight away.

But force pull/ lightning/ mind trick... why the heck did they have an academy, take in "younglings" and train them for /years/ if none of that was necessary? Why did the Sith take apprentices at great personal risk? Just for the lulz?
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Better to take young force-sensitives and shape them to your own beliefs rather than let them discover their powers on their own with god only knows what kind of result, no?

Heck, the Sith have a "survival of the fittest" mentality. It would be more in keeping for them to let potential force users learn on their own. If you don't need training, then why bother taking an apprentice.
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I don't see any logic in that assertion at all.

It... doesn't... make... sense. /If/ she hasn't had training, this is Abrams going against everything that came before. So why keep saying it's perfectly fine and makes sense?
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It really doesn't go against anything. You're just blinkered in thinking that all other force users we have seen have had training so it's not possible to be one without training. That's absurd.

If it made sense, there would be a lot more force users not aligned to either the Jedi or the Sith. They'd be all over the place, with varying levels of competency. But there aren't, not in the world Lucas created. Maybe Abrams is going to have force users all over the place, and self-taught at that. But it would be completely at odds with what's gone before.
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Not there wouldn't as the Jedi Order made a point of finding them at a young age and training them. After that all force users would have been hunted down and killed by the Empire.

That's why there is now "an awakening".
 
easyrider said:
The mind trick came very easily though....2 attempts....obi was wise a trained Jedi these skills need time to develop no?

It's like being a black belt in Kung fu....certain things cannot be achieved by a novice...wax on ...wax off etc... ( karate ) but you get my point :p
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If you were Kung Fu sensitive enough, then all you'd need to do is watch a Jackie Chan movie and bam! You'd know kung-fu :p

You'd just need to be open to the idea, and maybe touch someone's sparring pads for a second so you could download their memories :p
 
FoxEye said:
If you honestly think that is a valid explanation, then I despair.

I'm open to the idea of many things being possible. That does not mean I can do any of those things myself, without training or practice.

Climbing a sheer rock face without ropes is possible. Will I succeed if I try it? Will imagining it beforehand make me a good climber?

Nah, I just give up with you.

1. Listen to stories.
2. Touch lightsaber.
3. Instant Jedi.

You deserve everything JJ Abrams gives you :p
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Why not compare it to singing. Imagine if you had never heard singing before in your life and then all of a sudden you hear it and realise that you can give it a try too. You may sound like 20 constipated cats in a bag or you may sound like a choir of angels.
 
FoxEye said:
I'm not saying you're wrong. Just that it would be dumb.
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Then you're welcome to a seat next to easyrider at the petulant man-kids table.
Bask in the hate as much as you like, but you'll never become sith. Not even if Harrison Ford comes along and tells you its all real.
 
FoxEye said:
If you were Kung Fu sensitive enough, then all you'd need to do is watch a Jackie Chan movie and bam! You'd know kung-fu :p

You'd just need to be open to the idea, and maybe touch someone's sparring pads for a second so you could download their memories :p
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Oh shut up. Kung-fu is not a natural ability, it is trained. You can teach somebody who has no ability in Kung-fu some basic techniques fairly quickly.

You cannot teach somebody with no force ability anything if they don't have the natural ability to begin with.
 
ThePirateHulk said:
I don't believe we ever saw them try. Only when Luke tries to lift the x-wing and fail...but that was due to lack of believe. Rey believed in the power of the force straight away.

Better to take young force-sensitives and shape them to your own beliefs rather than let them discover their powers on their own with god only knows what kind of result, no?

I don't see any logic in that assertion at all.

It really doesn't go against anything. You're just blinkered in thinking that all other force users we have seen have had training so it's not possible to be one without training. That's absurd.

Not there wouldn't as the Jedi Order made a point of finding them at a young age and training them. After that all force users would have been hunted down and killed by the Empire.

That's why there is now "an awakening".
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You really will accept any explanation, won't you.

What if Abrams decides that the force can choose a "champion", and kind of make them it's avatar, and bam, instant master jedi. Who's to say it couldn't do that? Kind of like a possession.

It would be utterly crap, but if you're prepared to just give up all the canon, then I don't see why you'd be against this idea.

Or let's have the force materialise into humanoid form. Nothing to say this can't happen, right? We'll have a manifestation of the force, with new powers, and maybe have the Sith and the Jedi team up to fight it...

Ho ho ho ho ho. They can do anything and you'll lap it up.
 
One more "bug" that I've noticed upon second viewing. The first time Kylo and Hux stand before His Elastic Animation two oddities occur:

- After Hux is sent away and The Supreme Jacko asks Ren "There has been an Awakening. Have you felt it?" Ren answers "Yes." This is odd, because at that exact point, little Rey is still peacefully unaware of her powers, still onboard Falcon Millennium, before Maz and the sabre and visions and all that malarky. Whatever disturbance those two are feeling and discussing, shouldn't be really involving any vibes from Rey.

- Immediately after Kylo confirms he felt "it" The Grand Sméagol randomly shares "The droid we seek is onboard the Millenium Falcon, in the hands of Your father". He tells Kylo, not vice versa. So when the last remaining Scottish Pirate calls someone on his intergalactic cell from Han's freighter, apparently he hits direct line to the boss himself, no call centres, no on hold music?
 
ThePirateHulk said:
Why not compare it to singing. Imagine if you had never heard singing before in your life and then all of a sudden you hear it and realise that you can give it a try too. You may sound like 20 constipated cats in a bag or you may sound like a choir of angels.
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Everyone can sing, poorly. Can everyone roll up at the Sydney Opera House and perform without training?

Luke's piloting and Anakin's racing were the equivalent of singing poorly.

Rey's jedi mind trick is the equivalent of singing for a paying audience. One requires training and practice, the other doesn't.

Singing /= singing. Catch my drift?

ThePirateHulk said:
No, you just refuse to accept an explanation that diverges from your narrow view of how things should work.
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My view is informed by the previous films, and common sense. Your view is the one that is accepting of things with zero explanation, because you think everything should be possible. With no reasoning attached.
 
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FoxEye said:
You really will accept any explanation, won't you.

What if Abrams decides that the force can choose a "champion", and kind of make them it's avatar, and bam, instant master jedi. Who's to say it couldn't do that? Kind of like a possession.

It would be utterly crap, but if you're prepared to just give up all the canon, then I don't see why you'd be against this idea.

Or let's have the force materialise into humanoid form. Nothing to say this can't happen, right? We'll have a manifestation of the force, with new powers, and maybe have the Sith and the Jedi team up to fight it...

Ho ho ho ho ho. They can do anything and you'll lap it up.
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easyrider said:
I like the fact that others have questioned your theory ...and have gone unnoticed...while my points are as valid and you deem an insult is necessary...

Why is my theory any different ? Bully
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When has a Jedi / Sith Lord ever mind controlled a peer?
When has a Jedi / Sith Lord ever read a peer's mind?

The answer is, of course *drum roll*.... NEVER! So how can you say for sure what happens when an immature Sith tries to read the mind of an awakened Force user?
 
D3K said:
Then you're welcome to a seat next to easyrider at the petulant man-kids table.
Bask in the hate as much as you like, but you'll never become sith. Not even if Harrison Ford comes along and tells you its all real.
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I don't hate the film...and I'm sick of being used as a scapegoat now...

It's not on...either have a comeback that's got depth or stfu...TBH...
 
easyrider said:
I don't hate the film...and I'm sick of being used as a scapegoat now...

It's not on...either have a comeback that's got depth or stfu...TBH...
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So you're just sitting trying to pick holes in it (which are really only products of your own inability to think) for giggles then?

Trolling is another word for that.
 
easyrider said:
I don't hate the film...and I'm sick of being used as a scapegoat now...

It's not on...either have a comeback that's got depth or stfu...TBH...
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Actions speak louder than words, and you're constantly responding to people trying to be positive about the movie. Work it out.
 
D3K said:
When has a Jedi / Sith Lord ever mind controlled a peer?
When has a Jedi / Sith Lord ever read a peer's mind?

The answer is, of course *drum roll*.... NEVER! So how can you say for sure what happens when an immature Sith tries to read the mind of an awakened Force user?
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I'm on about Rey getting what alcoholics call a moment of clarity and mind tricking a storm trooper...

Does her resistance to Kylo Spring this sudden realisation ?

That she now has the skills to pay the bills ?
 
D3K said:
The answer is, of course *drum roll*.... NEVER! So how can you say for sure what happens when an immature Sith tries to read the mind of an awakened Force user?
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But she wasn't a force user :/ She became a force user after the failed interrogation/ touch lightsaber nonsense.

She hadn't used the force until then. As others have pointed out, she got thrown around by Kylo even after this (before he decided to stop using the force because it gave him an unfair advantage).

If she's had training and somehow forgotten it that's one thing. But these ideas that she downloaded the force from Kylo and a lightsaber I find insulting. Or rather, just plain bad.

Anyway I've said everything and at this point we're just butting heads against each other, so I'm out.
 
Just saw it at BFI IMAX. All my worst fears came true; it's a derivative, teeny bop, lazy, equal opportunities, chronological mess. The only delight was the art and cgi which really adds texture to what has been seen previously.

V disappointing: at least episode 1 tried to build a new narrative. This was just one lazy "let's do an echo film with tweaks and worse acting".

Even the music was utter gash. did John Williams really compose the score? There was not a single new track that was memorable.
 
easyrider said:
I'm on about Rey getting what alcoholics call a moment of clarity and mind tricking a storm trooper...

Does her resistance to Kylo Spring this sudden realisation ?

That she now has the skills to pay the bills ?
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Can you please construct sentences like a normal human being? It may make some of your ridiculous questions easier to answer.
 
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