Hillsborough inquest verdict.

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cheesyboy said:
In the context of Hillsborough, that doesn't seem a very good point to make at all. What actually is your point, in fact?
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The point was that your average joe public sees their police force wasting time, money and effort with a bunch of yobbos (again, pinch of salt people!). When said yobbos end up being involved in a tragic accident, all said yobbos do is blame the police and vilify them. Hillsborough is probably not the only example of this. Again, pinch of salt etc.

BaZ87 said:
Not only isn't it a good point but football clubs do pay for the policing :)
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How much, does that including train stations, public areas etc? I'd be interested to know the details.
 
Scam said:
I think a good point to make also, is probably how much the general public see football games as a total police resource hog. I know every time I get close to a game (in the same town by accident, or near the stadium/train station) I'm pretty angry about the sheer amount of resources that are used to protect a bunch of drunken loons from themselves (holy exaggeration batman, please take with a pinch of salt!). Seriously though. Football clubs should be footing the bill for their own security at stadiums and public areas, rather than relying on a public police force and then vilifying it at every given opportunity. If clubs can afford to pay their players £350k/week then they can afford to police their own damn games. There should also be far more work done by the FA, FIFA etc at clamping down on bad behaviour. As said above, you see none of this at other sporting events. Why is that?
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You are aware the clubs/league pay for the policing of their matches yes?

edit: should refresh before replying.
 
Scam said:
The point was that your average joe public sees their police force wasting time, money and effort with a bunch of yobbos (again, pinch of salt people!). When said yobbos end up being involved in a tragic accident, all said yobbos do is blame the police and vilify them. Hillsborough is probably not the only example of this. Again, pinch of salt etc.

How much, does that including train stations, public areas etc? I'd be interested to know the details.
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The police were in charge of crowd safety, and completely muffed it. Why wouldn't they be blamed?

And if Joe Public thinks "Yobos bringing it on themselves" in the face of the biggest public investigation in British history concluding it was the fault of the police, then Joe Public is a ****ing idiot, and right-minded folk would do well to think twice before subscribing to such beliefs.
 
Waste of police resources ?

. they love the overtime. The clubs pay for it. there is hardly any arrests etc these days. It's just a police presence

I rarely see trouble at football matches... Friday/Saturday night in town is a different scene altogether
 
cheesyboy said:
The police were in charge of crowd safety, and completely muffed it. Why wouldn't they be blamed?

And if Joe Public thinks "Yobos bringing it on themselves" in the face of the biggest public investigation in British history concluding it was the fault of the police, then Joe Public is a ****ing idiot, and right-minded folk would do well to think twice before subscribing to such beliefs.
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Sigh. Because those blaming the police are solely blaming the police and refusing to accept that is was a combination of mistakes that led to a terrible tragedy. How many times do I have to say it?

And the yobbos comment was not directed at Hillsborough. I was trying to show how joe public sees the interaction between football fans and police.

Only 3-4 years ago I was stuck on a Hull-bound train with Portsmouth fans that took up 75% of the train, were drunk, leary, racist and generally offensive. At 9am in the morning. I don't feel enough has been done to educate, control and punish this sort of mob mentality that goes along with football. Only a month ago I was walking through Paddington station only to be greeted by hundreds of Bristol fans on their way to Oxford (or was it the other way round?) that did a very good impression of a rampaging mob, and were generally very intimidating to everyone else. And no, I'm not saying this is a direct example to be taken from Hillsborough, I'm just saying this is the view that the general public have of football fans. Combine that with the massive police presence and you can see why people not involved get twitchy and exasperated when football fans are so quick to vilify the police.

Please, someone post a link that shows how much football clubs pay towards policing the home team train stations and public areas.
 
It's time alcohol was banned on trains. The times I've seen football supporters on the train shouting & taking over the carriage is ridiculous. Morons.

I'd ban them to be honest & let make their own way to a match.

I always laugh when I see supporters on TV being interviewed before or after a match & they are so hyped. It's just a boring game played by over paid idiots & watched by people who really do need to get things in to context.
 
Scam said:
Sigh. Because those blaming the police are solely blaming the police and refusing to accept that is was a combination of mistakes that led to a terrible tragedy. How many times do I have to say it?

And the yobbos comment was not directed at Hillsborough. I was trying to show how joe public sees the interaction between football fans and police.

Only 3-4 years ago I was stuck on a Hull-bound train with Portsmouth fans that took up 75% of the train, were drunk, leary, racist and generally offensive. At 9am in the morning. I don't feel enough has been done to educate, control and punish this sort of mob mentality that goes along with football. Only a month ago I was walking through Paddington station only to be greeted by hundreds of Bristol fans on their way to Oxford (or was it the other way round?) that did a very good impression of a rampaging mob, and were generally very intimidating to everyone else. And no, I'm not saying this is a direct example to be taken from Hillsborough, I'm just saying this is the view that the general public have of football fans. Combine that with the massive police presence and you can see why people not involved get twitchy and exasperated when football fans are so quick to vilify the police.

Please, someone post a link that shows how much football clubs pay towards policing the home team train stations and public areas.
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I've already said it, people are idiots. We know this!

It was the polices job to control the supporters. They didn't. It's very simple. You can go on about ambulance staff, stadium design and all the rest of it, but that's after the horse has bolted. Too late then! If the stadium was designed for X and Y were let in.....well, who's fault is it.

Look at the footage, they were packed in like sardines!
 
"andy" said:
Waste of police resources ?

. they love the overtime. The clubs pay for it. there is hardly any arrests etc these days. It's just a police presence

I rarely see trouble at football matches... Friday/Saturday night in town is a different scene altogether
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Lots goes on the background that you may not be aware of such as intelligence gathering around known supporters who cause trouble and active prevention of disorder. It's this work that prevents visible public order issues.

Also, not all forces pay overtime for these duties, Hampshire doesn't.
 
kitkat2015 said:
It's time alcohol was banned on trains. The times I've seen football supporters on the train shouting & taking over the carriage is ridiculous. Morons.

I'd ban them to be honest & let make their own way to a match.
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Why not just ban all passengers? Heck, ban trains!

Ban ban ban ban.
 
glen8 said:
I've already said it, people are idiots. We know this!

It was the polices job to control the supporters. They didn't. It's very simple. You can go on about ambulance staff, stadium design and all the rest of it, but that's after the horse has bolted. Too late then! If the stadium was designed for X and Y were let in.....well, who's fault is it.
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I'd say mainly the polices fault for letting them in and not controlling the build up of bodies, but also I'd say it was partly the fault of all those fans with/without tickets that were rushing in and jumping turnstiles etc.
 
glen8 said:
I've already said it, people are idiots. We know this!

It was the polices job to control the supporters. They didn't. It's very simple. You can go on about ambulance staff, stadium design and all the rest of it, but that's after the horse has bolted. Too late then! If the stadium was designed for X and Y were let in.....well, who's fault is it.
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Sorry, saying people are idiots doesn't make it ok. Why do (some) football supporters need so much controlling? Can they not think for themselves? Other sports fans seem to do ok. You don't see police breaking up fights at Silverstone, do you?

And what Burnsy2023 said. It's not just the police presence. All the intelligence gathering etc, the paperwork, even the cross-border stuff to keep louts out of international matches. It's a lot of time, money, and work just for the sake of a small minority.
 
Let me pose a hypothetical to show my position on this...

Let's say there was no attempted cover-up during and immediately after the disaster, there was no changed statements and the police investigated their input properly and honestly in the aftermath, let's say there was no abhorrent Sun headline and the tabloid media handled the situation with respect. Then let's say the Taylor Report comes out in the 90s and places the bulk of the 'blame' on the police and the authorities but doesn't specifically state the fans actions played no part and there was no 'unlawful' killing verdict [which the report did basically].

Under those circumstances, do you believe the JFT96 Group would have campaigned for 27 years to have the Taylor report amended with the clarifications they demanded, and got, from the latest inquest?

In my opinion I don't think they would and the Taylor Report would have ended the matter. In other words, I feel the incessant requests for further inquests to specifically absolve the fans of all responsibility is not about a noble quest for the truth, but rather a goal fuelled by vengeance and the understandable desire to turn a disgusting attempt by the police/Sun to whitewash the fans completely on its head so the total opposite was made 'official' in some way.
 
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glen8 said:
I've already said it, people are idiots. We know this!

It was the polices job to control the supporters. They didn't. It's very simple. You can go on about ambulance staff, stadium design and all the rest of it, but that's after the horse has bolted. Too late then! If the stadium was designed for X and Y were let in.....well, who's fault is it.

Look at the footage, they were packed in like sardines!
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By your logic the 7/7 bombings were the fault of the Tube Security staff.

It was their job to keep the passengers safe afterall.
 
Admiral Huddy said:
Do they?

old article so correct me if I'm wrong..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/7553875.stm
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You're not wrong. Clubs pay the cost of policing the ground and the immediate area around the stadium. There has been calls for clubs to pay for policing of the city centre etc and there was a legal battle between Wigan and Greater Manchester Police over this which Wigan ultimately won.

The irony of Scam's post, criticising clubs for not controlling fans is that 1 of the biggest factors behind the calls for clubs to pay for policing of a wider area is because of how successful clubs have been at forcing the small number of idiots out of football. The minority of idiot that call themselves supporters and travel around causing trouble can no longer get near top level football grounds.
 
estebanrey said:
Let me pose a hypothetical to show my position on this...

Let's say there was no attempted cover-up during and immediately after the disaster, there was no changed statements and the police investigated their input properly and honestly in the aftermath, let's say there was no abhorrent Sun headline and the tabloid media handled the situation with respect. Then let's say the Taylor Report comes out in the 90s and places the bulk of the 'blame' on the police and the authorities but doesn't specifically state the fans actions played no part and there was no 'unlawful' killing verdict [which the report did basically].

Under those circumstances, do you believe the JFT96 Group would have campaigned for 27 years to have the Taylor report amended with the clarifications they demanded, and got, from the latest inquest?

In my opinion I don't think they would and the Taylor Report would have ended the matter. In other words, I feel the incessant requested for further inquests to specifically absolve the fans of all responsibility is not about a noble quest for the truth, but rather a goal fuelled by vengeance and the understandable desire to turn a disgusting attempt by the police/Sun to whitewash the fans completely on it's head so the total opposite was made 'official' in some way.
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Not sure I'd argue with that.

So many factors are to blame for what happened - the fans, the reputation of British football fans at the time, the poor opinion the police had on fans at the time, the police themselves, the inadequate resources of the ambulance service to handle an emergency, the poor safety in the stadium itself. etc etc

If the original report had apportioned blame appropriately then it's likely it would have ended the matter. It's like it's gone from one extreme to the other - report 1 - blame the fans, report 2 - blame the police

It's the above that makes the "It was all the police's fault" not sit very well and the "truth" doesn't really sound right to me.
 
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