84 Confirmed dead after another apparent terrorism attack in Nice, France,

[scorza]

I don't disagree with that, but it is the hard border of a sea that makes it more difficult, not the checkpoint of customs.

even then, I know of the fishermen from Boston who used to sail across to Amsterdam...



But those borders are easily breached by circumventing the checkpoints.

I said in my post it makes it more difficult yes, but it doesn't stop it and if the people wanting an AK-47 got one before and get one now, then what's the difference - apart from the inconvenience to everyone else.

If you can prove that yes, it does actually stop the people who want an AK-47 from getting one, then sure I'll come round to your way of thinking.

Edit : Oh and to Hitman_Leon - I didn't think that was a personal attack from Scorza, He knows I was for a fully Federal Europe and no borders, so I wasn't insulted....but thanks for trying to protect my honour

If you have controlled borders, yes you have checkpoints along the main transport routes, but you also monitor the other parts of the border so if people are sneaking across at an unauthorised crossing then they get arrested and interrogated. I'm not saying it's fool proof, it just makes smuggling operations more difficult and gives control back to national governments.

.. and yes, no personal attack was intended.

 

[stuman]

Certainly a terrible and horrific attack in Europe but compared to the loss of life in Syria/Iraq etc. I'm sure the radicals would claim this is just a drop in the ocean.

I'm not sure how you can defend yourself against an ideology that seems to be a cross from something from medieval times and a horror film!!

I'm certain it would help if large parts of the Middle East weren't torn to shreds in the wake of Western intervention but I sure the problem would still exist in some form or another.

What I am sure about is there is no "simple" solution, it's all just a horrible mess but a mess that we will have to deal with. How is the million dollar question.

No amount of security is going to stop a "nutter in a lorry".

HEADRAT

For me I don't see a quick solution, but I can see one.

First for me is education, in some for for everybody anywhere. The more we understand about the world around us, the more unrealistic the idea of religion sounds.

Then start by removing protections afforded to religion. No more tax exemption (unless registered as a charity, and charitable work is carried out) no more protection in law ("can't do that, my God won't let me." Etc)

 

[Avenged7Fold]

There are political opportunists on the terrorist side. It would be pretty hard to argue that the increase in global deaths due to terrorism is nothing to do with western involvement int he east.

Spoiler

For me I don't see a quick solution, but I can see one.

First for me is education, in some for for everybody anywhere. The more we understand about the world around us, the more unrealistic the idea of religion sounds.

Then start by removing protections afforded to religion. No more tax exemption (unless registered as a charity, and charitable work is carried out) no more protection in law ("can't do that, my God won't let me." Etc)

They should not give exemptions to charity organisations and instead give exemptions to charitable purchases which go through the correct channels ie. purchases by a charty from registered organisations for spendings over £xxxx

 

[Snookums]

Every state needs strict border controls now. Enough of this free movement nonsense.

I'm sorry but that just won't help.

A) he was French. What are they going to do kick there own citizens out?

B) can we just highlight the fact that terrorism is against the law. You know murder and all that. If they are willing to murder and inflict terror on people they aren't afraid to illegal find a way into a country. When I say they I don't mean Muslims or anything before you try and turn my words against me. I mean terrorists. They come in all ethnicities, religion. Having a strict border isn't going to help terrorism.

 

[stuman]

If you have controlled borders, yes you have checkpoints along the main transport routes, but you also monitor the other parts of the border so if people are sneaking across at an unauthorised crossing then they get arrested and interrogated. I'm not saying it's fool proof, it just makes smuggling operations more difficult and gives control back to national governments.

.. and yes, no personal attack was intended.

Why stop at country borders, why not have checkpoints at every county. Screw it, every street.

You could have cctv with image recognition and if it doesn't recognise somebody then it reports them for interrogation.

You could also link that to all phones and devices with Internet connection and camera. If it doesn't recognise you then, BAM, interrogation for you!

 

[drunkenmaster]

Attributing these attacks to our invasion of Iraq is bizarre. Islamic extremism existed long before our invasion of Iraq and targeted the West long before we sent boots into the Middle East. In fact the founders of ISIS were active before our invasion of Iraq.

If you want to attribute the growth of ISIS to any recent historic events, it ought to be the Arab Spring. This is what displaced existing power structure in Syria, Libya and so forth. Had Saddam been in power when the Arab Spring occurred, there is every chance he'd just have been another dictator entrenched in a bloody civil war with ISIS or similar organisation.

You do realise that the removal of one dictator is a huge part of why the Arab Spring... sprung, right? Christian extremism, and pretty much every other religion and their extremists have been around for a long time as well. What happens in most countries is this thing called education, over time well, people grow out of it. The more education they have the less they believe in the extreme parts of religious doctrine and the less fanatical a country becomes.

We've spent the better part of 70 years(specifically of late to a higher degree) going over there along with the US and other countries and devastating these countries, causing uprisings, civil wars, killing leaders, turning one group of arabs against another, causing civil war in Palestine. Civil wars we've caused, full wars we've caused, kids killed, lit a fire under hatred between people. In all this kids end up fighting with AKs rather than in schools learning and moving past the extremist phase(which the UK, along with the US, and everyone else had to also grow through). Now schools are destroyed, kids are born into a situation where war is normal, hatred of others is common, the lines are divided and the extremist uneducated people have no foundation to build a better society from.

Iraq is part of the reason for this, religion is another part, destroying the entire region through wars either directly fought by UK or US or wars civil wars caused by our actions(accidentally or on purpose) all adds up to why this is happening.

Imagine if some stronger force every 20 years came in and killed a leader, knocked down our schools, killed friends and family, destroyed infrastructure then stayed around behind to teach us how their ways are so much better? Where would our society be if this had happened for the last 70-100 years? We'd be a society that hated everything whoever these people were stood for, we'd fight against their attempts to teach us how to be so much better... right after they killed loads of us. We wouldn't have schools to send our kids to and we'd be in a constant state of preparing for the next war in hopes to win it. This is what we've done to the middle east.

Does any of that excuse what they've done, not at all, but to completely ignore why an entire region feels entirely hopeless, hateful and having no way to grow beyond their current state is to have no hope ourselves of moving out of this era of intolerance and hate.

 

[Hitman_Leon]

Oh and to Hitman_Leon - I didn't think that was a personal attack from Scorza, He knows I was for a fully Federal Europe and no borders, so I wasn't insulted....but thanks for trying to protect my honour

.. and yes, no personal attack was intended.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

Why stop at country borders, why not have checkpoints at every county. Screw it, every street.

You could have cctv with image recognition and if it doesn't recognise somebody then it reports them for interrogation.

You could also link that to all phones and devices with Internet connection and camera. If it doesn't recognise you then, BAM, interrogation for you!

You are just being ridiculous now, the last point already happens!

Chrome doesn't recognise my steam account one time and decides to ask me what my cat is called, where i first went to school and what my best friends name is before it recognises me again!

 

[mid_gen]

How long until the UK is attacked again? I'm amazed that nothing has happened recently, is this down to the work being done to stop people before they can carry out these acts or is France just more of a target for this sort of thing?

I think that despite what people would have you believe, that the UK has adapted much better to them modern, mobile, multicultural world than France. It's not perfect but France has much more serious problems with the marginalisation of ethnic minorities.

Our security services also appear to be much more on the ball, and of course being an island with a bloody great natural barrier makes the job a fair bit easier.

 

[d_brennen]

Attributing these attacks to our invasion of Iraq is bizarre. Islamic extremism existed long before our invasion of Iraq and targeted the West long before we sent boots into the Middle East. In fact the founders of ISIS were active before our invasion of Iraq.

If you want to attribute the growth of ISIS to any recent historic events, it ought to be the Arab Spring. This is what displaced existing power structure in Syria, Libya and so forth. Had Saddam been in power when the Arab Spring occurred, there is every chance he'd just have been another dictator entrenched in a bloody civil war with ISIS or similar organisation.

Existed in such a clear and present threat to civilians in their own respective countris? I'm not saying you're entirely wrong, but to claim "the west" has no hand in the state of the ME is bizarre. Islamic Spring ousted Sadam now?

The whole concept of being the "World Police" is bonkers. Islamic problems need Islamic solutions

 

[MichaelAwkward]

Certainly a terrible and horrific attack in Europe but compared to the loss of life in Syria/Iraq etc. I'm sure the radicals would claim this is just a drop in the ocean.

The very fact that this attack is receiving such coverage almost instantaneously, with all of the messages by political leaders within hours, will be used as motivation for more attacks - where was the live rolling coverage of the attack in Baghdad last week where 250 people died?

 

[Avenged7Fold]

Using the graph in #377, can you see any specific event which may have led to increase in attacks?

 

[scorza]

Using the graph in #377, can you see any specific event which may have led to increase in attacks?

9/11

 

[Warbie]

The pattern of the perpetrator having a history of criminal activity before carrying out one of these attacks seems to have been the case in all the recent attacks in Europe.

Looks to me like the disillusioned of a certain community are simply looking for a way out. Maybe in a more secular setting they would just commit suicide but in their fantasy world martyrdom is the honourable way.

Religion is a dangerous crutch when it's users get disillusioned with life.

Well put.

 

[stuman]

You are just being ridiculous now, the last point already happens!

Chrome doesn't recognise my steam account one time and decides to ask me what my cat is called, where i first went to school and what my best friends name is before it recognises me again!

Did you name your cat allah? If so, I'd be waiting for the knock at the door, INTERROGATION TIME!!!

 

[Locky]

How long until the UK is attacked again? I'm amazed that nothing has happened recently, is this down to the work being done to stop people before they can carry out these acts or is France just more of a target for this sort of thing?

You can thank some of the best intelligence services in the world for that but some will slip through the cracks and it's only a matter of time until the uk is hit.

 

[stuman]

x1000

And then you have the likes of Blair saying "I wouldn't do anything different a second time".......

So, when you look at the idea of letting 100,000's into Europe where there is a good education system and structure in place, where people stand a good chance of changing, it doesn't sound so crazy.

 

[HEADRAT]

<snip>
Does any of that excuse what they've done, not at all, but to completely ignore why an entire region feels entirely hopeless, hateful and having no way to grow beyond their current state is to have no hope ourselves of moving out of this era of intolerance and hate.

Good post.

 

[Schlong&Stable]

Existed in such a clear and present threat to civilians in their own respective countris?

The Muslim population has exploded in the West over the last few decades. Obviously in the 70's, 80's and early 90's the risk was smaller as the population of Muslims was much smaller.

I'm not saying you're entirely wrong, but to claim "the west" has no hand in the state of the ME is bizarre.

I am not saying it had no impact, I am saying it wasn't a major cause. The Islamists hated the Baathists more than us, they aren't killing us because they're angry we took out Saddam.

Islamic Spring ousted Sadam now?

I did not say that. I said if Iraq had not been invaded, they may have still ended up like Syria come to Arab Spring.

The whole concept of being the "World Police" is bonkers. Islamic problems need Islamic solutions

Our involvement in Iraq had nothing to do with being "world police", it was (rightly or wrongly) about defending our interests against a perceived threat.

And Syria is an example of an "Islamic solution" and led to 1m+ refugees pouring into Europe.

 

[nine_tails]

This is terrible news.