84 Confirmed dead after another apparent terrorism attack in Nice, France,

Not all clerics are equal in standing and significance either, and there are religious norms within its two main traditions, guidance and interpretation of core texts for the followers which do indeed identify extreme behaviours and heresies as cults at best, and resolve questions of validity. We can semantically merge the two, but they are a world apart just as Westboro Baptist Church and its members are from anything resembling the norms of mainstream Christianity.

Crude, broad brushstrokes will neither 'fix' nor modernise mainstream Islam, nor will they help with addressing extremism. They'll make the situation worse and alienate more people.

It is interesting, and I wonder if it is an advertisement thing, or a language thing, but it seems to be relatively easy to pick out the Christian nut job splinter churches, even followers of the 'true faith' can generally be easily spotted. As like vegans, they just can't help themselves by telling you what they are, how evolution is wrong, how everyone is sinful, even within a few minutes of meeting them.

This doesn't seem so easy with Islam.
 
Sure, it's an ideology; however, Islam isn't any more or less inherently political or fatalistic, unless it's explicitly politicised so, than any other religion in its broad family. Nor is there something inherent about its theology, above and beyond others in existence, which makes it easier to be deployed as a political tool. It's newer and has been wielded ludicrously by a few autocrats, but that's about it.

not 100% sure I agree, obviously there are violent passages in the bible for example however the way the new testament sets out rather a different message whereas Mohammed was violent, did kill people (including innocents), didn't exactly treat women very well by modern standards etc..

though the theological stuff aside, if it were the case that it is no different to any other religion in that respect then it is still clear that it is in need of wider reform

Not all clerics are equal in standing and significance either, and there are religious norms within its two main traditions, guidance and interpretation of core texts for the followers which do indeed identify extreme behaviours and heresies as cults at best, and resolve questions of validity. We can semantically merge the two, but they are a world apart just as Westboro Baptist Church and its members are from anything resembling the norms of mainstream Christianity.

Extreme behaviours aren't always 'extreme' by Islamic standards, there are entire Islamic countries that could do with reform in this respect. It isn't just a small minority, in some instances it is majority opinion that is worrying.
 
not 100% sure I agree, obviously there are violent passages in the bible for example however the way the new testament sets out rather a different message whereas Mohammed was violent, did kill people (including innocents), didn't exactly treat women very well by modern standards etc..

The Quran has commentaries on both divisions of the Bible, hence also elements of the Torah. It was finalised after the New Testament, and I don't see any new books being added to either, do you? No religious text of that era treats anything by modern standards, whatever the tradition or selective quoting. Otherwise there'd be no religious scholarship, authority and interpretation as such.

You'll struggle to find many perfect leaders in either Christianity or Islam, and religious hypocrisy is as old as the religions themselves, it does not necessarily condemn the majority of its followers or serve as the moral baseline. The concept of sin wouldn't exist otherwise. And it's also worth reiterating that you can radicalise the ignorant and alienated with anything, however mythologically potent it is. But some structure helps hence why extremists and populists prefer religious overtones and trappings; they're rightly condemned for and called out on it.


though the theological stuff aside, if it were the case that it is no different to any other religion in that respect then it is still clear that it is in need of wider reform

Things change, and there's always a need for reform. However we like big paradigm shifts, for the most part, it's a very gradual process. Women's rights, contraception, gay marriage, multicultural societies, the primacy of the secular state, etc. take time to absorb. Regressions in social trends do occur. But this is not limited to religion or directly inspired by it. More can always be done but, as a wild guess, I'd wager other things come first in funding and policy priority. As a rule, the state doesn't directly get involved and manipulate private lives and belief systems.

Nonetheless, legislation, the rate of violent crimes, social attitudes and the rates of secularisation are progressing adequately.

Extreme behaviours aren't always 'extreme' by Islamic standards, there are entire Islamic countries that could do with reform in this respect. It isn't just a small minority, in some instances it is majority opinion that is worrying.

Controlling religious development in other sovereign states isn't something we do. But just like with the Cold War: a more attractive form of society, underpinned by trade and values that demonstrably provide a high quality of life wins over time; given we don't prop up autocratic theocracies for political gain eternally and do not turn into the exact thing we criticise as a society. For all the recent tub-thumping, we do seem to win more through culture and economics than force of arms or strongmen. I'd like to keep it that way.
 
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It is interesting, and I wonder if it is an advertisement thing, or a language thing, but it seems to be relatively easy to pick out the Christian nut job splinter churches, even followers of the 'true faith' can generally be easily spotted. As like vegans, they just can't help themselves by telling you what they are, how evolution is wrong, how everyone is sinful, even within a few minutes of meeting them.

This doesn't seem so easy with Islam.

An interesting point, I'm yet to meet Islam's equivalent of Jehovah's Witnesses or the like. However, on a serious note, what's most concerning at present isn't outright thugs of whatever creed per se but isolated and alienated individuals very detached from society who don't demonstrate any form of outward protest to anything.

They don't even have to be complete lone-wolves but addressing factors surrounding their existence, radicalisation and eventual rampage may require a more robust set of social and economic measures which may not be popular in the current climate of fear and limited resources (a poor excuse in a rich country, but here we are), may go against core political beliefs and need time. (Discarding cases that just cannot be accurately predicted, say brain injury or PTSD leading to violent behaviour, etc.)
 
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The Quran has commentaries on both divisions of the Bible, hence also elements of the Torah. It was finalised after the New Testament, and I don't see any new books being added to either, do you?

maybe maybe not... new religions have been created

but this is getting rather side tracked

Controlling religious development in other sovereign states isn't something we do. But just like with the Cold War: a more attractive form of society, underpinned by trade and values that demonstrably provide a high quality of life wins over time; given we don't prop up autocratic theocracies for political gain eternally and do not turn into the exact thing we criticise as a society. For all the recent tub-thumping, we do seem to win more through culture and economics than force of arms or strongmen. I'd like to keep it that way.

Yup we can't control it but I don't think we help matters too much with some of the regimes we align ourselves with - Saudi Arabia for example... In fact even the 'moderate' regime in Afghanistan vs the Taliban alternative has a lot to be desired. We're also getting towards the point where it is seen as 'racist' to criticise an ideology. We've got issues where progressive, liberal public figures like Maajid Nawaz are largely ostracised by the community they're trying to help reform. Islam still needs a lot of work quite frankly.
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36879359

Seen a few articles about this the past couple of days, looks like the French government are trying to cover up the amount of security that was on the promenade that night, both by pressurising witnesses and trying to destroy evidence.

They're not the only one. I've mentioned it in this thread and believe I got called racist for pointing it out. Germany are doing the same, as are Sweden and I believe the Netherlands.
 
This terrorist death cult phenomenon is nothing new - plenty of incidents in history showing how you fix the problem. Most recently, Sri Lanka's defeat of the Tamil Tigers.

So you're talking about beating ISIL only. I know how that's done, we're doing it already.
 
A few posts above: have fun on your slippery slope, guys.

To RoboCod: you're just banging your head against several brick walls, mate.

Yup we can't control it but I don't think we help matters too much with some of the regimes we align ourselves with - Saudi Arabia for example... In fact even the 'moderate' regime in Afghanistan vs the Taliban alternative has a lot to be desired.

Ideally our entire foreign policy, modelled strongly on US interests and our representation of those in Europe and the Middle East, could do with a rewrite for today, not half a century back. Our recent and not so recent interventions and state-building efforts also leave much to criticise in terms of implementation, cultural sensitivity and effectiveness; and the effect this had on subsequent asymmetric warfare and terrorism blooming as a present threat. But we cannot change the past, we have to deal with the present as it is now, and this often includes the individuals we propped up or put in power.

There's a sliver of credibility to the Foreign Office thinking on this matter however: at present we gain something from several regional players above and beyond the costs of their meddling, poor economic policies and human rights record (though, glaringly, they are very oblique on the point, so I suspect it comes down to money, intelligence and strategic location); if we destabilise, replace or disengage from these regimes -- how will they evolve, and what risk will the power filling the vacuum pose? Handing these states over to death cults like ISIS, or to sphere's of influence of wounded powers like Russia, will be a mistake.

Furthermore, in a globally-connected world, whatever action we do take propagates back to us; still, the economic and cultural route of an alternative sate model I alluded to earlier is powerful, and is still the best tool we have to help countries choose reform over autocracy, violence and repression, whatever the starting ideology. If better alternatives than destruction of human rights, religious persecution or armed intervention emerge, I'll be the first to let everyone know!

We're also getting towards the point where it is seen as 'racist' to criticise an ideology. We've got issues where progressive, liberal public figures like Maajid Nawaz are largely ostracised by the community they're trying to help reform. Islam still needs a lot of work quite frankly.

I also agree that we should not renege on providing a balanced and open forum for debate, letting people engage without fear and having the resources to implement meaningful community action. Although I do despair that out of however many vocal critics of Islam, atheism, 'modern values', political correctness, Liberalism, Christianity, or what have you, few have actually informed opinions or have read anything they refer to. Fact free arguments based solely on fear are fictitious and nobody gains anything from them, whilst social cohesion falters as a result.

Nonetheless, what's more of a concern is the recent use of ideology by demagogues and extremists of a different persuasion as proxy to attack the people behind Islam as an undifferentiated group; offering crude, simplistic solutions to complex problems of culture, mental health, society, economy and identity. This cannot be allowed to stand or be accepted as mainstream political discourse; arguments such as 'there's something inherently violent and wrong about X people' are racist to the core, and they do not address any of the social or religious issues raised, or help people who attempt meaningful reform.
 
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