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US: Westworld
- Thread starter the shadow
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Associate
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I do suspect Bernard may unknowingly be a host based on the mysterious Arnold, partly because the internal monologue (the bicameral mind Arnold created) prompting Delores to break her loop uses Bernard's voice.
Both Arnold and Bernard had a traumatic loss that impacted them greatly, and in a strange parallel to Teddy being informed about Wyatt, Bernard only started incorporating what had been a vaguely specified backstory into his narrative after Ford had deliberately referenced the event.
I don't think the period of the show has actually been determined yet, I suspect given the flawless transition from a corridor in a building to a moving, authentic looking train upon entering the park as well as the seemingly smart bullets it could be set a lot further into the future than initially assumed.
Both Arnold and Bernard had a traumatic loss that impacted them greatly, and in a strange parallel to Teddy being informed about Wyatt, Bernard only started incorporating what had been a vaguely specified backstory into his narrative after Ford had deliberately referenced the event.
I don't think the period of the show has actually been determined yet, I suspect given the flawless transition from a corridor in a building to a moving, authentic looking train upon entering the park as well as the seemingly smart bullets it could be set a lot further into the future than initially assumed.
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Ian, from Forgotten Weapons, has done a short video on Ed Harris's revolver.
There are several (I can only presume deliberate) period mistakes in Westworld - in saloon robbery scene one of the Hosts unwraps bundle with shotguns, revealing Winchester Model 1901 and modern (to us) all metal 12 gauge pump action shotgun. I take these things as a nod to period movie mistakes. You know -somewhere between small gaffe like the way army uniforms in "Zulu" still make any history anorak scream at their TV set and something completely historically idiotic, like American U571 retrieving Enigma machine from u-bot.
In Westworld Theme Park we are so far in the future (and quite possibly - so far from the west of USA), that settle differences between second half of the nineteen century and second half of the twentieth century are indistinguishable to both guests and organisers - therefore out of period weaponry or historically incorrect music played by the barrel piano makes absolutely no difference to anyone involved, to the viewers amusement and pleasure.
In Westworld Theme Park we are so far in the future (and quite possibly - so far from the west of USA), that settle differences between second half of the nineteen century and second half of the twentieth century are indistinguishable to both guests and organisers - therefore out of period weaponry or historically incorrect music played by the barrel piano makes absolutely no difference to anyone involved, to the viewers amusement and pleasure.
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Associate
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That might work, except, she's never got this far before. Dolore's loop (as far as we know) has always ended in the barn.
And from a narrative viewpoint it would be also back to front: in the barn, we see that the threat of Reuben triggers a memory of the MiB; that doesn't fit outside. Maybe I'm over thinking it, but I feel the flashbacks, when they occur, are very deliberate and I really don't think her that being shot was a flashback.
Admittedly, we haven't explained how the guns work (don't harm guests) yet, but it appears to be something a bit more subtle than the body-heat detection of the film. Almost as though the injury is self-inflicted because the host thinks it is real.
And from a narrative viewpoint it would be also back to front: in the barn, we see that the threat of Reuben triggers a memory of the MiB; that doesn't fit outside. Maybe I'm over thinking it, but I feel the flashbacks, when they occur, are very deliberate and I really don't think her that being shot was a flashback.
Admittedly, we haven't explained how the guns work (don't harm guests) yet, but it appears to be something a bit more subtle than the body-heat detection of the film. Almost as though the injury is self-inflicted because the host thinks it is real.
We know how they work to a degree, it really isn't as much of a plot problem as people think. Everything we need was shown to us. We know that hosts have various weapon privilege levels within scripts. Teddy can fire a gun, Dolores can not. Leader of the camp fire can use axe. The rest of his mates will loop indefinitely without him present because they can't use the weapon/tool that triggers the rest of the script.
Host with gun privileges is "zone blocked" from firing anywhere else than at the guest' torso. We know this from Teddy's duel with MiB at Dolores' Ranch. He shoots MiB several times, then MiB demonstrates futility of his actions by forcing Teddy's gun to his forehead. Teddy tries to squeeze the trigger and nothing happens. He cannot fire at guest's head. He cannot fire at guest from close distance.
Because guns appear to only carry some sort of coded soft pellet or pneumatic cartridge, guests will feel the impact but not get hurt by the "bullet", meanwhile hitting the host with one of those will trigger appropriate charge to explode under the artificial skin, in pretty much the same way as movie prop charges explode. Hmmkay?
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I like it, but it's starting to lose me with the fragmentation and pacing. It's probably intentional, but it almost feels like a third of each episode is completely redundant as it is just loops.
Precisely - so repetitions must be some sort of story device, otherwise we only need to see them twice in first episode to trigger that it's all groundhog day and that's it. That's where the separate timelines theory started.
In Teddy "as a guide, protector of Dolores" loops, he always wakes up on the train, always bumps into the six foot aggro guy at the train station, always passes by Sheriff and his deputes trying to rope guests into bounty hunt for Hector's gang, he always heads to the bar where Meave is the Madame, and unless he's asked by any guest to be their guide, he ends up spotting Dolores leaving grocery and follows her home, gets shot, loop repeats.
When William visits, he bumps into six foot aggro guy at the train station (because Teddy is not on the train), he passes by Union soldiers trying to rope guests into battle with natives, he reaches the bar where Clementine is the Madame and Meave is nowhere to be seen. We could presume it was simply different time of the day, but it's not - the train arrives once a day, and William meets Dolores leaving the grocery. She's our timeframe anchor. No Meave (maybe Meave is on the farm awaiting battle between natives and Union soldiers that will kill her "family"?). No Teddy (No "guide, protector" loop where Teddy tries to save damsel in distress on her ranch). No Hector "WANTED" posters in sight on the walls.
Something worth noting - we know Dolores mum is at the ranch. We see her dead in the first episode, we hear Dolores calling for her when father has a "glitch". But the show makers make sure we never see her face. I bet it's a face we would recognise immediately from another scenario and it will be used as a "tada!" moment later on in the series.
And there is yet another sign - The Sign. Company logo. When William arrives in Westworld, the logo has double "\W" on one side. We see that logo several times on coats around the Delos labs as well. Then in some scenes the logo changes to more "Wayland Yutani" style - it's now solid double \W/ on both sides, slightly different font....
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Associate
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Oh yeah, since the first episode I noticed they never show the mother's face, so I was waiting for a reveal there. Guess that's still coming. Perhaps it will be one of the "researchers" who has been re-purposed as a host? 
(maybe the "boss" one who smokes, she's old enough I think)
(maybe the "boss" one who smokes, she's old enough I think)Good call, two reveals in one.
Also, doesn't Hector the brothel robber closely resemble someone else we've already met in the show? Perhaps his character and his villain scenario "like all great stories, is rooted in truth"?
Somewhat a rhetorical question :-
but for the average viewer (watches the shows once) are they going to be satisfied by the apparent complexities of the plot and what may well be intentional (or unintentional - seems there are multiple directors ) mis-direction as to what is really happening.
Viewers will desert the show feeling betrayed if they do not manage to pull the threads together, it is a fine line.
Reading some of the reddit theories, many of which are also here , theories are becoming very elaborate - no agreement on a unified theory yet.
The last series I remember which presented such controversy is Life on Mars, which I think did manage to carry and respect the audience.
(Usual suspects, Fight club, The Sixth sense - albeit films , and maybe an easier gendre also provided satisfaction)
The characters in Westworld are not winning my empathy, which would also attcach me to the series, since there is so little exposure of their personalities, histories, relationships (because they are hosts?)
but for the average viewer (watches the shows once) are they going to be satisfied by the apparent complexities of the plot and what may well be intentional (or unintentional - seems there are multiple directors ) mis-direction as to what is really happening.
Viewers will desert the show feeling betrayed if they do not manage to pull the threads together, it is a fine line.
Reading some of the reddit theories, many of which are also here , theories are becoming very elaborate - no agreement on a unified theory yet.
The last series I remember which presented such controversy is Life on Mars, which I think did manage to carry and respect the audience.
(Usual suspects, Fight club, The Sixth sense - albeit films , and maybe an easier gendre also provided satisfaction)
The characters in Westworld are not winning my empathy, which would also attcach me to the series, since there is so little exposure of their personalities, histories, relationships (because they are hosts?)
This came up in Ford's dialogue in the first episode, when he was talking about quotes he'd programmed into one of the hosts. He mentioned using Shakespeare and John Donne that would have been written at the time, but also using stuff by Gertrude Stein (who?) that hadn't been written yet and which he knew to be anachronistic but he "couldn't resist", like he doesn't care because it's cool. So no, Black Hole Sun and Paint It Black were not old favourites in the old West, but they sound cool as a soundtrack for the guests. Those guns may not have been around at the time, but they look badass and the guests don't know any different, so in they go.
As for how the guns work, I think there has to be some explanation at some point. I don't think it's enough to say that it's about android cowboys so inconsistent guns should be the least of our worries. You can handwave away AI and robots and all the rest of it as sci to, but the physics of guns like this are well and truly in the realm of science fact, so if they don't behave as we expect then the illusion is broken.
I watched the film last night and that talked about how the guns have a temperature sensor so won't fire at a warm body, which is something, though it doesn't really make sense as you'd assume the hosts would be warm enough that making with the love didn't feel like getting it on with a cold lump of metal. Even then the film never explained why the man in black was able to kill Brolin's character with a gun, unless we just assume he could override the sensor. It seemed odd that you could brawl with the hosts and presumably not get hurt, and certainly roman world and medieval world would have been pretty much impossible to handle as one guest could trivially wind up stabbing another guest... So the series needs to at least be more consistent and coherent than that, or at least engineer things in such a way that it never appears anomalous.
There is clearly real impact to the bullets, or at least they trigger real and serious damage to the hosts. After all, Thandie Newton shot that host through the back of the head in episode 1 and blew his face completely off, so either it's a real bullet going through or there's some major explosive charges wired through the entire body of the robot to render damage appropriately depending on where they get shot...
I watched the film last night and that talked about how the guns have a temperature sensor so won't fire at a warm body, which is something, though it doesn't really make sense as you'd assume the hosts would be warm enough that making with the love didn't feel like getting it on with a cold lump of metal. Even then the film never explained why the man in black was able to kill Brolin's character with a gun, unless we just assume he could override the sensor. It seemed odd that you could brawl with the hosts and presumably not get hurt, and certainly roman world and medieval world would have been pretty much impossible to handle as one guest could trivially wind up stabbing another guest... So the series needs to at least be more consistent and coherent than that, or at least engineer things in such a way that it never appears anomalous.
There is clearly real impact to the bullets, or at least they trigger real and serious damage to the hosts. After all, Thandie Newton shot that host through the back of the head in episode 1 and blew his face completely off, so either it's a real bullet going through or there's some major explosive charges wired through the entire body of the robot to render damage appropriately depending on where they get shot...
Partially, but it's still fairly speculative, as you've ackowledged. That being said, I do also think that we can to an extent take it on trust that it works given that the guests are happy enough with the system. If they aren't questioning it, then we can probably assume it's ok. However, if the inconsistencies become more significant or get in the way of the story - more like the inconsistencies in the film - then we will need an explanation.
It's funny, cause this show keeps bringing me back to the central point that Philip K. Dick was trying to make with Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep (Blade Runner to cinephiles). Either way - I think Westworld has made for some of the most compelling TV that I've seen in a decade or more; the last time I can recall intently watching a show and giving it my undivided attention would possibly be Farscape. No. Tell a lie, it was BSG.
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Could the mib be a host given guest privileges, but the staff don't know, except hopkins as so many staff have been and gone?
Could also have Arnolds physche/mind transplanted into it or something?
Need some clarification on the bullets as they found one in ep4.
Could also have Arnolds physche/mind transplanted into it or something?
Need some clarification on the bullets as they found one in ep4.
I'm thinking that MIB definitely has something to do with Arnold, mainly down to the conversation Robert has with Bernard. What I'm currently thinking, is that Arnold isn't actually dead, but created a host with more freedom in terms of self determination to allow the host to transcend its programming. It's interesting that Bernard also seems to have something of the same goal with Dolores; he doesn't seem to be all that bothered about wiping her memories after their little therapy sessions.
Anthony Hopkins though, is the biggest thing I can't figure out. He prefers to spend his time being around and fixing hosts, and yet reiterates that they are just things. Does he know more about Arnold's theories than he's telling people, and is careful to keep them at a distance as a consequence?