Huge reductions in foreign student numbers

[deuse]

It's been too bloody evident, this is what people were sniggering about. This is "taking back control".

As someone above said, the student visa system has been grossly abused and we also need to shut down the dodgy colleges set up purely as a gateway for illegal aliens to use.

This.

 

[platypus]

Given its an Amber Rudd initiative, perhaps the universities should be required to make all their foreign students be given a little gold star.

 

[Dis86]

My original point was that UK students dont pay enough compared to the cost, THAT is why our courses are limited, because we cannot afford the resources to teach them. Foreign students fill the gap, the more foreign students we have, the more UK students we can afford to subsidise.

The think of the children was a reference to these fresh out of college kids being denied their chance to study here when they have the brains and money and we need them.

No amount of planning can render this unnecessary with our tiny budgets. the NHS cost money to run and students cost money to teach and train, local students cost far more to train than they pay. Simple as that. You say subsidise students further but with what money? The government wont go that route, caps are being raised continuously, just 8 years ago the maximum cost of university tuition was limited to a third of what it costs now for domestic students. With the cost of medical training being far higher than what domestic students actually pay and the government only showing signs of passing the cost to the students, your idea that they will suddenly fill the financial gap foreign students leave AND pay for training medical that the domestic students cant afford is laughable. Where is this money going to come from, the already struggling NHS? Lolplease, that will just lead to more agency hires to fill the gap and an astronomical NHS bill which will lead to the selling of the NHS before the first generation of subsidised junior doctors even pass.

The shortage of drs results in the need to use contractors at vastly inflated prices. Use that money. Short term pain. Long term gain.
Spend the cash now to subsidise training of more and then in the future we reap the benefit

 

[Tefal]

You assume incorrectly. Someone being denied because they/their family cannot afford the money to go is a far cry from not having the intellect and prerequisite knowledge required to learn. The former is not equal opportunity, the latter is - because they had the opportunity to go but didn't cut the mustard.

but their family doesn't have to pay anything, you can go to uni with a whole penny to your name as you pay the loans back from your salary after you graduate.

The former is not equal opportunity, the latter is - because they had the opportunity to go but didn't cut the mustard.

actually they didn't, you have about as much choice over your intelligence as you do your parents wealth (arguably less)

 

[Avenged7Fold]

The shortage of drs results in the need to use contractors at vastly inflated prices. Use that money. Short term pain. Long term gain.
Spend the cash now to subsidise training of more and then in the future we reap the benefit

If the shortage on available spaces is due to the cost of training, then why does cutting foreign student numbers even help at all if they pay their way. Surely you want both the subsidised domestics to make up the numbers and foreign students to pay their way and then some to expand the facilities required.

You are making it seem like there is a choice between domestic students and foreign, i am saying that is not the choice and that shortage on spaces is due to funding but foreign students do not take a space from domestic ones.

 

[Tefal]

Given its an Amber Rudd initiative, perhaps the universities should be required to make all their foreign students be given a little gold star.

yay godwin.

 

[Dis86]

If the shortage on available spaces is due to the cost of training, then why does cutting foreign student numbers even help at all if they pay their way. Surely you want both the subsidised domestics to make up the numbers and foreign students to pay their way and then some to expand the facilities required.

You are making it seem like there is a choice between domestic students and foreign, i am saying that is not the choice and that shortage on spaces is due to funding but foreign students do not take a space from domestic ones.

And you're making it seem like we can't train our own without foreign subsidy. Which is what I'm saying is bull crap.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

And you're making it seem like we can't train our own without foreign subsidy. Which is what I'm saying is bull crap.

We cant train our own without foreign subsidy without making our NHS suffer short term.

My original point is that there are no benefits to cutting legitimate foreign students, which is what the thread is about. Not saving the NHS or training doctors or whatever point you are driving.

Legitimate foreign students are a useful resource and it is a waste to deny them entry. It has never been a choice between foreign and domestic students, so i dont know what you are getting at by talking about subsidising domestic students so we dont have to take foreigns. Your point of dropping foreign students for domestic ones makes no sense when domestics dont compete with foreign students for the same funding. Foreign students come here to our benefit.

 

[ubersonic]

lololololololololol

Sad.

Good arguments, many valid points

 

[Dj_Jestar]

but their family doesn't have to pay anything, you can go to uni with a whole penny to your name as you pay the loans back from your salary after you graduate.

Holy context changing batman. I'm replying to the comment chain that started with "Still, the Tory ideal of University only for the rich again becomes one step closer."

actually they didn't, you have about as much choice over your intelligence as you do your parents wealth (arguably less)

Opportunity, Tefal. Opportunity. Being too poor to go is not having the opportunity, but being able to go but unable to complete the course(s) because you don't have the ability is still opportunity.

Please stop trying to twist it. You are going to have a very tough time trying to prove that "not being rich enough" is anything like "not having the abilities to complete the work required"

 

[Dj_Jestar]

Good arguments, many valid points

And yours are... where exactly?

 

[jas72]

^^^^This is true.

It took me 40 minutes at mid day to get my missus 3 miles down the ****ing road for a works pick up point.

I never really liked driving always thought it a need for work type thing.

I been driving over 20 years and its bloody ridiculous now, it takes me 10+ minutes to drive just over mile to get my daughter to dance.

Doctors 2 week wait for an appointment.
Dentist appointment 3 months+.

I know for a fact the current UK infrastructure, health care, schools and logistics are at breaking point.

What you are moaning about is years of public sector job cuts. Yet the tories have managed to make YOU and a significant portion of the country blame foreigners for their austerity measures.

You couldn't make this up... I'd be laughing if it weren't so shocking.

 

[Dis86]

We cant train our own without foreign subsidy without making our NHS suffer short term.

My original point is that there are no benefits to cutting legitimate foreign students, which is what the thread is about. Not saving the NHS or training doctors or whatever point you are driving.

Legitimate foreign students are a useful resource and it is a waste to deny them entry. It has never been a choice between foreign and domestic students, so i dont know what you are getting at by talking about subsidising domestic students so we dont have to take foreigns. Your point of dropping foreign students for domestic ones makes no sense when domestics dont compete with foreign students for the same funding. Foreign students come here to our benefit.

Back to it...do you have a source that funding is what restricts the numbers on courses?

 

[Greebo]

Except as we've already established there are limited places on courses. You've stated it's due to lack of funding and that international students pay more ergo subsidise UK students and are therefore required. I'm pointing out how they're not.

But the million dollar question is would these courses be over subscribed if the uk student had to pay £30k per annum to do that course eg £150k of student debt to be a doctor?

 

[jas72]

It's been too bloody evident, this is what people were sniggering about. This is "taking back control".

As someone above said, the student visa system has been grossly abused and we also need to shut down the dodgy colleges set up purely as a gateway for illegal aliens to use.

Illegal aliens

You are talking about humans yes?

Of course I haven't even seen a legal alien.

How many of these dodgy colleges are out there?

What amount qualifies the term grossly abused?

How many EU students are abusing the system since you think that taking back control by leaving the EU will help?

Have you got any sources for these claims.

 

[Dis86]

But the million dollar question is would these courses be over subscribed if the uk student had to pay £30k per annum to do that course eg £150k of student debt to be a doctor?

Given the potential income I can't see why not. People will incur over 50k debt to study pointless courses like philosophy at the minute!

 

[Tefal]

Holy context changing batman. I'm replying to the comment chain that started with "Still, the Tory ideal of University only for the rich again becomes one step closer."




Opportunity, Tefal. Opportunity. Being too poor to go is not having the opportunity, but being able to go but unable to complete the course(s) because you don't have the ability is still opportunity.

Please stop trying to twist it. You are going to have a very tough time trying to prove that "not being rich enough" is anything like "not having the abilities to complete the work required"

But its a msde up point.

Its not even vaguely true.

If anything by fewer rich foriegn students taking up soaces more poor british people can go

 

[englishpremier]

Foreign student fees are already above that, at least at the institution I work at.

Sadly domestic student fees are edging close to that already too :/

Domestic fees and the costs to the student are already higher in the UK than the vast majority of US universities.

It's a misconception that foreign students subsidies domestic ones though. They pay their fair share i.e. the going rate of tuition. Domestic students are subsidised via the tax payer. This is why tuition fees are regulated.

 

[Dj_Jestar]

But its a msde up point.

Its not even vaguely true.

If anything by fewer rich foriegn students taking up soaces more poor british people can go

No, it's not made up and is absolutely and objectively true.

You're the one making it up - explicitly so by claiming "its not even vaguely true".

Domestic students are already prioritised over foreign students.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

It's a misconception that foreign students subsidies domestic ones though.

It most certainly is not when it comes to the huge cheap to run courses treated like money making machines. Surrey university literately takes several hundred business management students which only require a few large lecture rooms to teach and under 10 hours a week per student worth of teaching. Students on those courses, international more so than domestic, fund other more expensive to run courses at universities.