Truck crashes into Christmas market in Berlin

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CapitalOne said:
I'm probably being a bit trite on some of these, but that's page one.



I'm not picking on you, and to be exact they don't say all muslims are terrorists, but they do infer the solution is to get rid of all muslims (from non muslim countries).
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Those are counters to people implying Islam plays no part in the violence we're seeing. To say that Islam is a contributing factor isn't blaming all Muslims.
 
Chris Wilson said:
If this Pakistani they cited as the driver proves innocent of this monstrous crime, will he be deported as a criminal and illegal alien, or given compo and abjectly apologised to, even martyred, I have to wonder? I have asked twice why Pakistanis are being offered refugee status on European soil in this thread, yet all goes quiet. Are the thousands illegally entering European countries as plastic refugees another subject to be swept under the carpet? Too none PC for discussion? So prevalent that discussion might draw unwanted attention to what I am rapidly learning is a major source of illegal aliens, stealing places from genuine refugees, as insidiously as stealing from the collection plates of charities and churches? The figure of 80% of refugees claiming asylum in Germany claiming to have "lost" any papers showing their true identity and origin is risible, and a much more Draconian stance needs taking against this almost school boy like excuse.
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I'd assume they would let him go and allow him to stay until they have made a decision on his specific asylum case...

He has been reported as an asylum seeker - which by definition is someone who is seeking asylum. You don't know if he is already registered as an asylum seeker or whether his application has been rejected, so arguing for deportation is stupid.

That said currently over 90% of Pakistani asylum applications in europe are rejected so if he is there "legally" it's likely his asylum claim will be rejected. On the other hand his arresting for a crime he (possibly) didn't commit has little to do with his asylum claim.

http://www.dw.com/en/deported-pakistanis-will-have-to-face-the-law/a-19164560
 
dowie said:
By not engaging in a military escapade Syria when a certain red line was crossed we've allowed the current situation in Aleppo to occur.
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Which has had a similar death toll to the retaking of Mosul, and significantly less than the Israeli attack on the Gaza strip a couple of years ago.

Aleppo is a ridiculous example either way. It's largely a fight between a government force and a largely non islamist rebel force. There are plenty of better examples in the Syrian conflict that could be used (ones involving more islamist forces), but the reality is the instability has been directly caused by a rebel uprising - "backed" by us.
 
Zethor said:
Do we accept that 1 in 5 women have been the victims of at least one form of sexual assault? We don't yet it happens because, yes, freedom has its cost and challenges. Islamic terrorism is based on a virulent ideology that thrives on conflict and opression. Banning the religion it is based or targetting its innocent followers will only make it easier for it to spread.

No we can't sit quietly n take it but we can't 'send em back!' or 'build that wall!' either.
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Domestic abuse runs at around 25% in the UK (for both women and men), yet it isn't used as an excuse to ban marriage/cohabitation.

Deal with the problems, not create some scapegoat that affects a huge majority of law abiding citizens (and probably doesn't stop the non law abiding citizens).
 
Brenn47 said:
I'm annoyed by this, we've not long come through being bombed weekly by the IRA, now we get a load of idiots leading us to potentially decades of the same.

I see no end to it. :mad:

I guess the next step is arming all police and the Army patrolling the streets. :mad:
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Unfortunately there never will be. It's human nature (or perhaps more specifically animal instinct, because it's not exactly a solely human trait).

There will always be groups of people that believe their way is right and are willing to try and force the issue with violence, whether it be terrorism or state sponsored. Currently it's extremist islamism, with the occasional far right attack mixed in (at least in the west). In future it'll be something else.
 
Arazi said:
The apologists minority card spun like a yarn right there, say what it is rather than compare terrorists to football thugs, i need captain facepalm ffs.
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How about refuting it with a decent argument?

No? Don't have one? Thought not....:rolleyes:

Skunkworks said:
What if the ideology is such that it has a propensity to produce such individuals and extremist groups?
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See CapitalOnes post about football hooligans. You may not like it but it really is a good analogy.
 
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BREAKING: Main suspect released due to insufficient evidence.

Must not have been him, I'm sure there must be sufficient CCTV in the area to prove/disprove whether or not he came out of the cab of the truck. Also they say there's a lack of 'forensic' evidence.

So, all bets are off and the discussion up til now ridiculous?

p.s. I was in Berlin last night,however my hotel was on Friedrichstrasse (nowhere near) and we weren't going out as my missus has a stinking cold and didn't want to go out on the last night. First we heard was a text from the UK, I'd bought a schinkenkasebrot from a stall that is now flattened that very morning :/
 
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CapitalOne said:
Sorry that's a bit of a cop out. Now you can call me an apologist for that statement :D
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Click on the links in context, they are all replying to "nothing to do with Islam" type comments. In fact 4/5 of the quotes are replying to the same post!

Do you think Islam is a contributing factor in the ongoing violence?
 
richthomuk said:
I'm not confusing anything,
[...]
All of my posts have simply been saying that Islam is not the problem, its individuals, and crazy crazy extremist groups using religion as an excuse, just like Christians have done for hundreds if not thousands of years. We cant just paint all Muslims as being terrorists, which is something many people on this forum love doing.
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The above is what you're confusing, you were quoting me while giving odd hypotheticals and saying: 'we don't rally around to condemn all Christians right?' then talking about painting all muslims as being terrorists.

Can you not see that there is a distinction between pointing out a problem with Islam and making generalisations about all muslims. If you're going to make accusations like that then quote the actual posts (if there are any) don't quote my posts where I've certainly not done that. If you believe I have then you're confused, if you don't believe I have then why quote me and make that statement in relation to what I've said?
 
Skunkworks said:
Click on the links in context, they are all replying to "nothing to do with Islam" type comments. In fact 4/5 of the quotes are replying to the same post!

Do you think Islam is a contributing factor in the ongoing violence?
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It's one of many factors - but it doesn't mean all/most muslims are bad as has been inferred.

It's defintely being used but it's evil sods using it to get bored/poor/stupid sods to do their bidding. If all the big muslim cheeses/ISIS bosses blew themselves up in the name of the religion then I might change my mind. Until then, it's just manipulation for someone elses cause, brand muslim, just like all the other "cause brands" out there. Why do you think they offer such "big prizes" that they never have to deliver to get people to do it?

By hating it, you are buying into it.
 
Amp34 said:
Which has had a similar death toll to the retaking of Mosul, and significantly less than the Israeli attack on the Gaza strip a couple of years ago.

Aleppo is a ridiculous example either way. It's largely a fight between a government force and a largely non islamist rebel force. There are plenty of better examples in the Syrian conflict that could be used (ones involving more islamist forces), but the reality is the instability has been directly caused by a rebel uprising - "backed" by us.
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Aleppo isn't a ridiculous example and there is the wider conflict to consider too - Aleppo is just one example! The instability has been caused by the actions of the Syrian government in responding to protests with extreme violence! That is what sparked a civil war before the West even got involved. Given the violence of the regime towards the civilian population and the possibility of the use of chemical weapons Obama didn't intervene but drew his red line... which was then crossed... and he backed down. Since then Russia got involved and the regime realised it could act with impunity.
 
Amp34 said:
Out of interest, if you think there is so much pressure to adhere to these non legal "courts" why do you think banning these "courts" would make any difference?
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What 'non-legal courts'?

I'm talking about sharia 'courts' that act as mediation and arbitration services. They can act within the law at the moment but there aren't many checks on them. Regulating them might be a good idea given the impact they can have on people's lives.

If you have a system whereby you can regulate them then the results of arbitration from any operating outside the regulated system could be made enforceable for a start, people continuing to run them outside of a regulated system could face prosecution.
 
Skunkworks said:
What if the ideology is such that it has a propensity to produce such individuals and extremist groups?
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Amp34 said:
See CapitalOnes post about football hooligans. You may not like it but it really is a good analogy.
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Let's use the football analogy.

Does football produce higher instances of violence in its fans than other sports? Where are the swimming hooligans, snooker hooligans, athletics hooligans, tennis hooligans etc?

In the same way that some sports are far more likely than others to produce violence in its followers, so are some ideologies.
 
dowie said:
The above is what you're confusing, you were quoting me while giving odd hypotheticals and saying: 'we don't rally around to condemn all Christians right?' then talking about painting all muslims as being terrorists.

Can you not see that there is a distinction between pointing out a problem with Islam and making generalisations about all muslims. If you're going to make accusations like that then quote the actual posts (if there are any) don't quote my posts where I've certainly not done that. If you believe I have then you're confused, if you don't believe I have then why quote me and make that statement in relation to what I've said?
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Ok, ill humor you, if you were not generalising then I hold my hands up and hope you accept my apology. You did post this though:

"Right because there are plenty of Sikhs and Hindu extremists carrying out similar attacks in Western cities... oh no wait"

Which was your comment after you quoted this:

"Islam isn't the problem, Islamic extremists using Islam to justify their actions is what the problem is."

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