Driving Instructors - getting worse?

[Steeps]

I learned with an indy and he was great. Had to regularly use NSL roads to get to the test routes so learning to get up to speed after junctions was nailed in right from the start. Quite often we'd have to overtake other learners on the route who would sit at 40 and not get any further. Strict with lane discipline, car positioning and also making sure your own car is not an inconvenience to other road users. Passed first time with an examiner who liked to fail first timers.

I do agree that a session on a skid pan/closed off environment should be essential, learning how the car behaves when out of control is just as important when trying to prevent serious injuries from collisions.

The satnav section is a good change for the test. Usually the examiner would give direction at each junction making it fairly easy for the driver to understand how to place the car, if relying on instructions from a satnav it is up to the driver to place the car how they see fit and when.

 

[Nasher]

Skid pan experience etc should be mandatory I reckon. Knowing how to control a car should things go boobs up is more useful than knowing how to reverse around a corner.

In addition people should get to experience a RWD car as well, because they handle very differently when you loose grip. A lot of people jump in to something like an old MX-5 as a new driver and then end up in a ditch when winter hits.

 

[MikeTheNative]

agreed, teaching proper handling and brake control is absolutely key, plus it'll teach not only how to control and out of control car, but also how easy it is to go past the limits especially when conditions are bad.

whilst people should always drive within the limits of their own and their car's ability, how do you do that if you've never experienced where that limit is?

I don't think anyone should be driving near their car's limits on public roads.

 

[Nasher]

I don't think anyone should be driving near their car's limits on public roads.

If you don't know what the limits are, how do you stay safely within them? When I get a new car, I always find somewhere quiet (with plenty of space) and explore the grip limits, so that I know when I'm taking a corner to fast etc in future.

Those ecobox runarounds that new drivers tend to buy have very low limits and you don't have to do much to end up in trouble in bad conditions, because they handle like a shed. Especially if you have crap tyres.

People need to be taught what to do when you start to slide and to experience it. Because most just don't know how to react. It would prevent a lot of crashes.

 

[MikeTheNative]

You won't know what the limit is till you put it into the hedge or somebody else. I agree about some of the crap cars having extremely low limits but people shouldn't be going near them on public roads, it's way too dangerous.

 

[adolf hamster]

I don't think anyone should be driving near their car's limits on public roads.

such is the problem, i wholeheartedly agree, but the thing is how do you know what near to the limit is?

the thing is, in reality, its possible to hit the limit without realising, would it not be better to teach people about the dangers of oil slicks/black ice in a safe environment rather than when as you say you put it through a hedge? what happens when you don't have the safety net of abs/traction control to save you?

thing is, road conditions and reality can sneak up on you, there's a road near me that due to the geography tends to be 3-4 degrees lower than everywhere else, if you didn't know the area it'd be easy to drive down it assuming like everywhere else its dry and cold, only to find the perennial black ice that crops up on the corner.

or going round a roundabout on a rainy day to find someone's spilled oil/diesel and suddenly 20mph is too fast for the conditions.

 

[MikeTheNative]

such is the problem, i wholeheartedly agree, but the thing is how do you know what near to the limit is?

the thing is, in reality, its possible to hit the limit without realising, would it not be better to teach people about the dangers of oil slicks/black ice in a safe environment rather than when as you say you put it through a hedge? what happens when you don't have the safety net of abs/traction control to save you?

thing is, road conditions and reality can sneak up on you, there's a road near me that due to the geography tends to be 3-4 degrees lower than everywhere else, if you didn't know the area it'd be easy to drive down it assuming like everywhere else its dry and cold, only to find the perennial black ice that crops up on the corner.

or going round a roundabout on a rainy day to find someone's spilled oil/diesel and suddenly 20mph is too fast for the conditions.

Your right, I feel the driving test/instruction doesn't teach enough about poor road conditions and what to etc. I like the idea of a compulsory day at a skid pan to learn what to do when losing traction.

 

[Dr Who]

We are talking about a country here that has removed reversing into a parking space as a test item and replaced it with driving in and reversing out, despite knowing that reversing into a parking space is MUCH safer because "that's what most people do".

How likely do you think they would incorporate what is best for new drivers?

 

[Nasher]

I don't see why they can't have both in the test O_o

 

[adolf hamster]

I don't see why they can't have both in the test O_o

they should, as well as parking in severly restrictive space and getting out without dinging other cars, because that's an every day occurrence for most wheras driving with satnav isnt.

 

[ttaskmaster]

I dont think the issue is how strict instructors are or are not.

No instructor should be so strict that they scare people.
Instructors are there to teach. They should encourage you in whatever manner is most effective for the individual. In many good cases, that ends up with the student being ashamed of silly mistakes and endeavouring to do better. I know a couple of moments I've had, my first thought was about what my instructor would have thought of me.
I've also had the terror of seeing her come past me on her bike more than once and being extra careful in case she spotted me or recognised the car - She's not above keeping in touch with her former students and dropping them a kind email or Farcebook message to help them 'tidy away' any bad habits she might notice creeping in since last they drove together!!

I think the issues lie in instructors focusing on just getting students to pass in the quickest time. They teach them to pass the test rather than drive.

Part of that comes from kids not being open to learning and just wanting to pass the test, because they then have their licence and that's all there is to it... an attitude seemingly inherited from older generations.

I don't think anyone should be driving near their car's limits on public roads.

Depends on the car.
To a certain extent, no, not given how high the limits are on certain modern cars... but as mentioned, there is something about learning what the limits are in the first place. By this, I mean where the limits of the car are exceeded by the limits of the road.
For example, I know there's a certain roundabout locally that I can take at over the 40mph road limit in my Octavia, no problem... but my wife's CR-V needs to take it under 25mph else it starts to understeer. 40mph would probably see me rolling the damn thing!

So it's about being able to ascertain the limits of the vehicle and keeping things within that, before bad things happen, as much as driver and road limits.

We are talking about a country here that has removed reversing into a parking space as a test item and replaced it with driving in and reversing out, despite knowing that reversing into a parking space is MUCH safer because "that's what most people do".

Have they???!!!
I know they were looking to remove the reverse-around-a-corner one and there were trials over it... thought reverse into a bay had been retained, though.
Certainly reversing out is harder, due to the limited visibility and so requires demonstration of observation, control, slow speed manoeuvres, etc...
I wonder if it's because instructors often had fault-free directions - With mine, you pulled up 1m to the side of the cars, lining the 4th bay marking line along with your door handle, stuck it on full lock and then just reversed in smooth as anything.....

I actually preferred the 45º method, like my dad used and I occasionally even stick my left hand on the passenger headrest when I do it, just like Dad, ha ha !!!

 

[Dis86]

Another one tonight. Clipped a parked car...wtf was the instructor doing to allow that to happen?

 

[cyclopopcicle]

Hi, I am a driving instructor and thought I should comment on a few of the posts.
If anyone has any other questions, fire away.

No instructor should be so strict that they scare people.
Instructors are there to teach. They should encourage you in whatever manner is most effective for the individual. In many good cases, that ends up with the student being ashamed of silly mistakes and endeavouring to do better. I know a couple of moments I've had, my first thought was about what my instructor would have thought of me.

Part of that comes from kids not being open to learning and just wanting to pass the test, because they then have their licence and that's all there is to it... an attitude seemingly inherited from older generations.


I know they were looking to remove the reverse-around-a-corner one and there were trials over it... thought reverse into a bay had been retained, though.
Certainly reversing out is harder, due to the limited visibility and so requires demonstration of observation, control, slow speed manoeuvres, etc...
I wonder if it's because instructors often had fault-free directions - With mine, you pulled up 1m to the side of the cars, lining the 4th bay marking line along with your door handle, stuck it on full lock and then just reversed in smooth as anything.....

I actually preferred the 45º method, like my dad used and I occasionally even stick my left hand on the passenger headrest when I do it, just like Dad, ha ha !!!

45º method is what i prefer to teach and your right about "
Part of that comes from kids not being open to learning and just wanting to pass the test, because they then have their licence and that's all there is to it... an attitude seemingly inherited from older generations.
"
They all want to pass in 10 hours as that's what Dad did.

I think as Dav points out, the marketing waffle about earning loads and choosing your own hours has attracted a lot of people to that particular industry. I appreciate learners can be slow off the mark, or slow to get upto speed. But driving considerably slower than the limit, and simple things like being in the correct lane is something the instructor should be pointing out if the learner doesn't know/hasn't realised.

I suspect that when these instructors pass a test to show they're able to instruct, i would imagine there's no continuous testing to ensure they're teaching at a high standard.

Instructors are standards checked by the DVSA either every 2 or 4 years dependant on grade (now A or B, used to be 1-6 but only 4-6 could work as instructors)

I never let my learners drive too slow, as has been said it can be more dangerous than going to fast.

I think the problem is many just teach passing a test, not roadcraft.

So you end up with people thinking they know how to drive because they know what signs mean, but actually don't know how to use the road properly. A bit like cyclists

Most have never even heard of roadcraft.

My driving instructor would get really annoyed at the other instructor if I found myself behind a learner doing that. His view was if the learner wasn't able to drive at close to the speed limit on a NSL then they shouldn't be on them until they were. He would keep people away from NSL roads until he felt they were capable.

Same for me.

I dont think the issue is how strict instructors are or are not. My instructor was pretty chill and it was like driving with a mate in the car, that is not to say it mistakes were easier to get over. Rather than being scared of my instructor after messing up or driving badly, it just felt incredibly embarrassing and worked as well as any amount of discipline, making me want to actually drive well and safely.

I think the issues lie in instructors focusing on just getting students to pass in the quickest time. They teach them to pass the test rather than drive. The vast majority off people i hear starting lessons sound like they get thrown in the deep end straight away. That these instructors just tell them to have a go and instruct them on the fly without telling them how to do something first. I think this probably makes most kids nervous and its hard to follow instructions on the fly for the first time when your nervous. My instructor went through gear changing, junctions, roundabouts, lanes and all that with laminated pictures for a few minutes before I did it for the first time, something not all instructors do. Hell, it should be even easier with an ipad and short animations these days.

a lot of instructors let pupils "have a go" because they are sick of being pestered by either the student or their family members and are worried that the said pupil will leave them for another.

We are talking about a country here that has removed reversing into a parking space as a test item and replaced it with driving in and reversing out, despite knowing that reversing into a parking space is MUCH safer because "that's what most people do".

Not true, all parking exercises are staying, its the turn in the road and reverse corner that are going.
It will be reverse parallel park on road, reverse park car park backwards or drive in and then reverse out, Pull up on the right side of the road then reverse 2 car lengths back then move off again and 20 mins of sat nav driving but only 1 in 4 tests will be sat nav, the other will be as it is now signs and directions.

 

[Dr Who]

They were going to remove the reverse in, but I see they have retained it as an option.

 

[Semple]

Instructors are standards checked by the DVSA either every 2 or 4 years dependant on grade (now A or B, used to be 1-6 but only 4-6 could work as instructors)

That's interesting to know, although a 4 year gap at the far end is quite some time to be reassessed. Also how do the DVSA do these assessments, i.e. some sort of undercover spot check where the learner driver is actually the tester, or effectively the instructor goes out with an examiner the same way the practical tests are conducted.

I guess the problem with the latter is that any instructor could "dress-up" their instructing skills whilst under examination, but not necessarily stick to that high standard when not under examination. And with the former, i imagine most instructors would be able to tell if the student was actually examining the instructor, so probably wouldn't work that way.

 

[Nasher]

Another one tonight. Clipped a parked car...wtf was the instructor doing to allow that to happen?

I'm temped to put some metal spikes (or at least metal edge protectors of some kind) on the corners of my bumpers, because bumper scraping in car parks seems to be getting worse. Then if they think it's ok to make contact they can shred their own car :/

 

[Conscript]

Generally don't have a lot of problems with learners and I'm happy to give them the benefit of the doubt. But what really annoys me is seeing them in the outside lanes of dual carriageways for no reason, especially when they don't even have a student on board. Purely because lane hogging is a pet hate of mine, and I wish more was being done to stamp it out early on

 

[ttaskmaster]

They were going to remove the reverse in, but I see they have retained it as an option.

They'd have had to and would certainly be well-advised to teach it, too, since several companies insist on reverse-parking on their sites now... with disciplinary action if you don't comply!

But what really annoys me is seeing them in the outside lanes of dual carriageways for no reason, especially when they don't even have a student on board. Purely because lane hogging is a pet hate of mine, and I wish more was being done to stamp it out early on

Long as they're overtaking and not exceeding the speed limit, what's the problem?

 

[Conscript]

Long as they're overtaking and not exceeding the speed limit, what's the problem?

But what really annoys me is seeing them in the outside lanes of dual carriageways for no reason,

Overtaking would be a reason.

 

[ttaskmaster]

Overtaking would be a reason.

So would the intent to turn right further ahead, particularly if it means less changing lanes and the like... round here, it's almost a requirement to do it that way.