Driving Instructors - getting worse?

[Conscript]

So would the intent to turn right further ahead, particularly if it means less changing lanes and the like... round here, it's almost a requirement to do it that way.

Just to nip this in the bud right now, if you can think of a good reason to be in the outside lane, then I am obviously not referring to learners in those scenarios.

I thought it would be easier to say "for no reason", than list out every exception where being in the right-hand lane of a dual carriageway would be acceptable. I guess I was wrong.

 

[ttaskmaster]

Just to nip this in the bud right now, if you can think of a good reason to be in the outside lane, then I am obviously not referring to learners in those scenarios.

I'd assume if they don't have a student on board then, as an instructor, they do (or certainly should) know what they're doing and have a good reason for it, even if it's not immediately apparent from my perspective...

 

[Conscript]

I'd assume if they don't have a student on board then, as an instructor, they do (or certainly should) know what they're doing and have a good reason for it, even if it's not immediately apparent from my perspective...

So what reasons make it acceptable to be cruising on the outside lane of a dual carriageway? So far, we've got two:
- Overtaking slower traffic on the left.
- Intending to make a right turn at a roundabout/junction within an appreciable distance.

In my post, I was referring to learners where neither of these conditions were met. There was no traffic on the left, and the next possibility to make a right turn wouldn't have been for about 20 miles or so.

All I did was post anecdotal experience of poor driving from an instructor, in a thread specifically devoted to discussing poor driving from instructors. Not quite sure why you feel the need to deconstruct my post so much, but if you wish to add further reasons to the list above, I will correct my post if you can come up with something which I had not already considered when I wrote "for no reason".

 

[Dis86]

So would the intent to turn right further ahead, particularly if it means less changing lanes and the like... round here, it's almost a requirement to do it that way.

How far further ahead? 0.1 miles, 0.5? 1? 5? 10? 50?

 

[DampDog]

I dont think the issue is how strict instructors are or are not. My instructor was pretty chill and it was like driving with a mate in the car, that is not to say it mistakes were easier to get over. Rather than being scared of my instructor after messing up or driving badly, it just felt incredibly embarrassing and worked as well as any amount of discipline, making me want to actually drive well and safely.

I think the issues lie in instructors focusing on just getting students to pass in the quickest time. They teach them to pass the test rather than drive. The vast majority off people i hear starting lessons sound like they get thrown in the deep end straight away. That these instructors just tell them to have a go and instruct them on the fly without telling them how to do something first. I think this probably makes most kids nervous and its hard to follow instructions on the fly for the first time when your nervous. My instructor went through gear changing, junctions, roundabouts, lanes and all that with laminated pictures for a few minutes before I did it for the first time, something not all instructors do. Hell, it should be even easier with an ipad and short animations these days.

Some of the pressure to get the student through the test as quickly as possible doesn't stem from the instructor. Common question is "how many lessons will it take?" or "Young lad next door had 20 lessons and passed!!, My lad has had 30 and you've not even put him in for the test yet!!" (yeah but I've eaten carrots with a higher IQ than your lad)

If all your instructor does is circle the test routes lesson after lesson, bin them off. A decent instructor will be coaching you by the time your are ready for your test, not still instructing every time you drive a road you've not been on. They should have a lesson-plan for every student that gets in the car. You should know what the aims of the lesson are before you've turned a wheel. That said it has to be tempered with it all be squeezed into the hour.

I've been an instructor for my sins, (stopped 2012) and a few year back there was a huge upturn in number of folk training to be instructors. That appears to have now died back

 

[Mr Joshua]

The standard of driving seems to be plummeting in this country, the amount of people who either don't bother indicating at all or continue indicating right when leaving roundabouts boggles the mind.

Driving instructors seem to be no better in many cases, what hope do their students have when their instructors are **** poor?

 

[ttaskmaster]

So what reasons make it acceptable to be cruising on the outside lane of a dual carriageway?

Depends greatly on the road.
Another common one is avoiding unnecessary lane changes, such as when coming up to an entry ramp. Many people like to sit in the outside lane rather than contend with traffic that doesn't know how to get up to speed.

In my post, I was referring to learners where neither of these conditions were met.

But what really annoys me is seeing them in the outside lanes of dual carriageways for no reason, especially when they don't even have a student on board.

Ah.... From the especial remark about there being no student on board, I assumed you meant the instructor (since there is no learner on board, and all).

There was no traffic on the left, and the next possibility to make a right turn wouldn't have been for about 20 miles or so.

Again, that wasn't especially highlighted. Just the implication that there was no good reason you could see.
I now assume you mean an NSL dual carriageway rather than, say, just a two lane road restricted to 40mph going through the centre of town...?
But again, if they want to lane-hog, let them. If you need to get past and can do so without speeding, then it's not undertaking and you're free to do that. If you need to get past and cannot because there's traffic in lane 1, then they are (presumably) overtaking that traffic already.
Don't see what the problem is, unless you're speeding yourself...

How far further ahead? 0.1 miles, 0.5? 1? 5? 10? 50?

Again, depends greatly on the road.
On the example of Reading's IDR, a dual carriageway with a 40mph limit, it's usually easier to stay in whichever lane you will eventually need as you go round it, both to avoid clogging up the numerous entry/exit junctions and because traffic can get pretty heavy pretty suddenly, leaving you trapped in lane, especially approaching the 3-lane roundabouts. It's not as intuitive as it should be and most people claim it takes a few months just to learn how to handle it.
http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/news-opinion/10-experiences-reading-drivers-deal-11052142

In general though, an NSL dual carriageway, I'd think you're fine to start getting into whichever lane you need around 1 mile distant, or once the signs for it start appearing - Whichever is the sooner. Same for the motorway 2-mile warning you get on SatNav and the like, since they're both NSL.

 

[Dis86]

And that's where you're wrong. You've applied distances where there aren't any. The answer given in the highway code is 'when appropriate'. A mile before a roundabout on an nsl when you're doing 40 and the other cars are doing 70 is not appropriate and therefore not in accordance with the highway code.

 

[ttaskmaster]

And that's where you're wrong. You've applied distances where there aren't any. The answer given in the highway code is 'when appropriate'. A mile before a roundabout on an nsl when you're doing 40 and the other cars are doing 70 is not appropriate and therefore not in accordance with the highway code.

I did say "in general" and "around"... That should have implied when appropriate, assuming you know the turn is coming up, depending on traffic and road conditions.
And what would I be doing at 40mph in Lane 2 of an NSL dual carriageway if I am able to do 70 anyway?
A lot of assumptions behind your reasoning, there...

 

[Conscript]

Again, that wasn't especially highlighted. Just the implication that there was no good reason you could see.
I now assume you mean an NSL dual carriageway rather than, say, just a two lane road restricted to 40mph going through the centre of town...?

It wasn't specifically highlighted for brevity.
If I had any doubt over the reasons for poor lane discipline, then I wouldn't have made the post in the first place. Yes, I am referring to an NSL carriageway.

But again, if they want to lane-hog, let them. If you need to get past and can do so without speeding, then it's not undertaking and you're free to do that. If you need to get past and cannot because there's traffic in lane 1, then they are (presumably) overtaking that traffic already.
Don't see what the problem is, unless you're speeding yourself...

Passing someone on their left is inherently more dangerous, and poor lane discipline reduces the efficiency of multi-lane roads. The point of my post was not to complain that the specific examples of poor driving I had witnessed had inconvenienced me, but to highlight that it's poor behaviour in general which is not being addressed at the tuition level - which means the problem in general is exacerbated when we have people who are passing their driving tests, and joining motorways, completely unaware that the simple rule of "keep left unless overtaking" should be adhered to.

 

[ttaskmaster]

It wasn't specifically highlighted for brevity.

But you were specific about other aspects, hence the questing conversation.

Passing someone on their left is inherently more dangerous, and poor lane discipline reduces the efficiency of multi-lane roads.

Indeed... but if you've space to legally pass on the left, then they're not impacting the road that much.
Besides, even the best of us move out to pass a line of traffic and end up on autopilot for a bit. Most of us realise and pull back in.

The point of my post was not to complain that the specific examples of poor driving I had witnessed had inconvenienced me, but to highlight that it's poor behaviour in general which is not being addressed at the tuition level

I believe that may be a small contributory factor, perhaps slightly worsened by the fairly recent increase in independent instructors... but you get good and bad in both camps. The organised companies like BSM, RED and all that are pretty damn expensive and many instructors get a better deal from going independent, leaving the worse ones under the corporate yoke in a job they hate, clearly not motivated to do anything more than churn students through tests.

But at the same time, humans are lazy and forgetful, so no matter how well they are taught by how expert an instructor, they still develop bad habits and break laws. If that weren't the case, we'd not have so many people speeding... because I guarantee that even the worst instructor in the UK would not advocate hooning your Beemer around at 130mph.

 

[Conscript]

Indeed... but if you've space to legally pass on the left, then they're not impacting the road that much.

I disagree. They are forcing other traffic to make unnecessary manoeuvres, thus increasing risk to others, in order to pass.

 

[Dis86]

I disagree. They are forcing other traffic to make unnecessary manoeuvres, thus increasing risk to others, in order to pass.

Precisely. Suggest you read the highway code ttask. Rule 133 onwards should help...

 

[ttaskmaster]

I disagree. They are forcing other traffic to make unnecessary manoeuvres, thus increasing risk to others, in order to pass.

I said "not that much".
If you have space to pass on the left, the road isn't *that* busy...

Precisely. Suggest you read the highway code ttask. Rule 133 onwards should help...

OK, let's look at that, shall we?

"If you need to change lane, first use your mirrors and if necessary take a quick sideways glance to make sure you will not force another road user to change course or speed. When it is safe to do so, signal to indicate your intentions to other road users and when clear, move over."

So this is all about what YOU should do when changing lanes... Says nothing about getting all in a hissy when negotiating someone else who may not be following the Highway Code.

Let's look instead at:

Rule 146
Adapt your driving to the appropriate type and condition of road you are on. In particular:
- take the road and traffic conditions into account. Be prepared for unexpected or difficult situations.

Rule 147
Be considerate. Be careful of and considerate towards all types of road users, especially those requiring extra care
- try to be understanding if other road users cause problems; they may be inexperienced or not know the area well.
- be patient; remember that anyone can make a mistake.

 

[Dis86]

I said "not that much".
If you have space to pass on the left, the road isn't *that* busy...


OK, let's look at that, shall we?

"If you need to change lane, first use your mirrors and if necessary take a quick sideways glance to make sure you will not force another road user to change course or speed. When it is safe to do so, signal to indicate your intentions to other road users and when clear, move over."

So this is all about what YOU should do when changing lanes... Says nothing about getting all in a hissy when negotiating someone else who may not be following the Highway Code.

Let's look instead at:

Rule 146
Adapt your driving to the appropriate type and condition of road you are on. In particular:
- take the road and traffic conditions into account. Be prepared for unexpected or difficult situations.

Rule 147
Be considerate. Be careful of and considerate towards all types of road users, especially those requiring extra care
- try to be understanding if other road users cause problems; they may be inexperienced or not know the area well.
- be patient; remember that anyone can make a mistake.

So what you're saying is it's ok for people to drive otherwise in accordance with the rules and that it's other people's responsibility to be considerate towards those morons?

And yes, anyone can make a mistake but they should correct themselves. If they're not they're doing it intentionally in which case it's not a mistake or they're just too stupid to safely exist on a modern road.

 

[ttaskmaster]

So what you're saying is it's ok for people to drive otherwise in accordance with the rules and that it's other people's responsibility to be considerate towards those morons?

What I'm saying is that the Highway Code expects you to be prepared for people to drive otherwise in accordance with the rules and make allowances that facilitate your safe and successful negotiations of them and any hazards they may present.

And yes, anyone can make a mistake but they should correct themselves. If they're not they're doing it intentionally in which case it's not a mistake or they're just too stupid to safely exist on a modern road.

So you're saying it's up to *you* to correct their mistakes and/or remove their arrogance and/or stupidity from the road...?

 

[Dis86]

What I'm saying is that the Highway Code expects you to be prepared for people to drive otherwise in accordance with the rules and make allowances that facilitate your safe and successful negotiations of them and any hazards they may present.


So you're saying it's up to *you* to correct their mistakes and/or remove their arrogance and/or stupidity from the road...?

No. I'm saying there are a set of rules there for them to abide by and people shouldn't have to work their way around those who choose not to abide by them.
You're the one who keeps banging on about being considerate of idiots. I'm saying there shouldn't be idiots because driving instructors should do their job properly.

 

[ttaskmaster]

No. I'm saying there are a set of rules there for them to abide by and people shouldn't have to work their way around those who choose not to abide by them.

You also shouldn't have to deal with any of the other road hazards, like potholes, ice, horses, fallen trees, etc, but you can't do much about those either.
So unless you're a cop and have the authority to pull these people, the only option is to move around them and be on your way...

You're the one who keeps banging on about being considerate of idiots. I'm saying there shouldn't be idiots.

Ah, so culling at birth, then?

 

[Dis86]

You also shouldn't have to deal with any of the other road hazards, like potholes, ice, horses, fallen trees, etc, but you can't do much about those either.
So unless you're a cop and have the authority to pull these people, the only option is to move around them and be on your way...


Ah, so culling at birth, then?

No. Proper education via competent instructors and enforcement of regulations. The whole point of this thread before your borderline retarded tangent.

 

[ttaskmaster]

No. Proper education via competent instructors and enforcement of regulations. The whole point of this thread before your borderline retarded tangent.

People have been getting proper education via competent instructors for decades, yet they still go on to develop bad driving habits, make mistakes, foul up, allow their minds to drift, or otherwise willfully break the laws of the road... It's nothing new and many of them know full well they're doing wrong, but choose to do so anyway and no amount of instruction will stop them from doing this.

So unless you're about to come up with some genius plan for road enforcement that will prevent people from being people, you're all out of equally retarded challenges...