Barcelona Incident

[Cold Fusion]

It's nowhere as simple as that. It doesn't just rely on the length of time they are there, but they have to show they are economically active, have learnt the language, integrated, passed citizenship tests (a bit of a joke I know) etc etc

And this can be after 5 or even up to 8 years.

So it doesn't make any logical sense that someone is going to build their life in say Germany, put down roots, get a job, then when they 'maybe' get citizenship they immediately up sticks and all flood to Britain.

Perhaps you are correct but I still wouldn't be surprised if it did start happening, personally I think a robust immigration system is to our benefit Balancing tourism and travel with immigration and policing is difficult.

But leaving a fairly open door policy in the face of terrorism is not very logical, hopefully the government will see it this way as well. As Rifte suggest above 'solidarity' and 'standing with X' is not going to do anything to deter terrorism as they don't think in the same way.

Anyway this discussion is digressing from the title, any news on the nationality of those killed yet?

 

[VincentHanna]

Serious question though and I dont want to call anyone a terrorist apologist because everyone whatever their viewpoint is horrified by this.

My question is though for those that are more tolerant and perhaps understanding of the Islam problem than I am, when do you say enough is enough??

How many more incidents do you have to witness before you snap? Is there an end to your tolerance with this before you turn around and say that we need some hard measures?

Do you believe that we can go on as we are? Do you believe that the action or inaction (whatever your side of the coin) that our leaders are portraying is enough? Or is this a way of life that you accept that we have to accept?

Change comes over time, you try and engage and include the youngsters so they feel part of your society and not ostracised from it.

Same reason (in general) that we are less racist than our parents, and our kids will be less racist than us.

At the moment in the UK we've had what, 3-4 major muslim terror attacks in 10 years? And about 6 'successful' attacks if you include things like the 2015 tube attacker who injured people with a knife

It was just unfortunate that we had three this year, but the ISIS caliphate is failing so they are trying to encourage their followers to cause chaos in their own country.

When you read the list of actual terror attacks since 2000, half of them aren't even Muslims

2000s

• 2000, 20 September: The Real IRA fired an RPG-22 rocket launcher at the MI6 headquarters in London.
• 2001, 4 March: The Real IRA detonated a car bomb outside the BBC Television Centre in London, damaging the front of the building and injuring one person.[41]
• 2001, 3 August: The Real IRA detonated a car bomb in Ealing, London, damaging buildings and injuring seven people.[42]
• 2001, 11 September: While not in Britain, the September 11 attacks in the US killed 67 Britons and 16 others with close UK ties, more than any other terrorist attack.[43]
• 2001, 4 November: Real IRA car bomb in Birmingham.[44]
• 2005, 7 July: 7/7 central London bombings conducted by four separate Islamist extremist suicide bombers, which targeted civilians using the public transport system during the morning rush hour. Three bombs were detonated on three separate trains on the London Underground and one on a double-decker bus. 56 people were killed and 700 were injured. It was the UK's worst terrorist incident since the 1988 Lockerbie bombing and the first Islamist suicide attack in the country.
• 2007, January–February: Miles Cooper letter bomb campaign. Miles Cooper said he was motivated by anti-authoritarianism and opposition to surveillance.[45]
• 2007, 30 June: Glasgow International Airport attack perpetrated by Islamist extremists. Five people were injured and the only death was of one of the perpetrators.
• 2008, 22 May: Exeter attempted bombing in a café toilet by an Islamist extremist, injuring only the perpetrator.

2010s

• 2013, 29 April to 12 July: Pavlo Lapshyn attacks. Lapshyn, a Ukrainian student and right-wing extremist, stabbed Mohammed Saleem, a Birmingham resident to death on 29 April. He later admitted to police that he wished to start a "race war".[46] Lapshyn later detonated a home-made bomb outside a mosque in Walsall on 21 June. 150 homes were evacuated but no person was injured.[46] On 28 June Lapshyn detonated a second home-made bomb near a mosque in Wolverhampton, and attacked a mosque in Tipton with an improvised explosive device containing nails on 12 July. Friday prayers were delayed that day, and so his intended victims were still inside. Laphsyn was later sentenced to serve a minimum of 40 years.[47][48][49]
• 2013, 22 May: A British soldier, Lee Rigby, was murdered and decapitated in an attack in Woolwich by Michael Adebolajo and Michael Adebowale, two Islamist extremists armed with a handgun and a number of bladed implements including a cleaver. Both men were sentenced to life imprisonment, with Adebolajo given a whole life order and Adebowale ordered to serve at least 45 years.[50]
• 2015, 5 December: A man with a knife attacked three people at Leytonstone Tube Station in East London. The attacker was 29-year old Muhaydin Mire who was shouting "this is for Syria". The attacker was found guilty of attempted murder in June 2016. Three people were injured in the attack and one was seriously injured.[51]
• 2016, 16 June. Labour MP Jo Cox, aged 41, was killed by Thomas Mair, according to testimony given in court.[52] Cox was fatally shot and stabbed outside the library in Birstall, West Yorkshire, where she was about to hold a constituency surgery at 1:00 pm. A 77-year-old local man, Bernard Kenny, was stabbed in the stomach while trying to fend off her attacker. The Crown Prosecution Service described it as an act of terror.[53] The judge, in his sentencing remarks, said that Mair's violence was politically-motivated.[54] Neo-nazi group National Action had adopted a slogan used by Mair, "death to traitors, freedom for Britain" and were subsequently proscribed following the attack.[55]
• 2017, 22 March: 2017 Westminster attack – Khalid Masood, a 52-year-old British man, born in Kent as Adrian Elms, drove a car into pedestrians on Westminster Bridge, before crashing the vehicle into the Palace of Westminster's perimeter. He then entered the grounds of the Palace of Westminster, the meeting place of the Houses of Parliament, before being confronted by a police officer, whom he fatally stabbed before being shot himself. Six, including the perpetrator and the officer, were killed in the incident, and 49 people were injured. The attack is being treated as an act of terrorism motivated by Islamic extremism.[56][57][58][59]
• 2017, 22 May: 2017 Manchester Arena bombing – A large explosion caused by Salmen Abedi, a British suicide attacker with a bomb at the Manchester Arena, Manchester, killing 22 individuals and injuring 250. The attack occurred shortly after an Ariana Grande concert had concluded, and is the most deadly terror related incident in the United Kingdom since the 7/7 London bombings in 2005.[60][61]
• 2017, 3 June: June 2017 London attack. 8 people were confirmed dead and at least 48 injured, some critically. A white van drove at high speed across London Bridge, running into groups of people, then crashed. The occupants then ran to nearby Borough Market, where they stabbed many people.[62][63][64] All three of the terrorists involved were shot dead by police eight minutes after the incident was reported. All three were wearing imitation suicide bomb vests.
• 2017, 15 June: An explosive device detonated at HMP Cardiff in Wales and caused some damage to the building, but there were no reported injuries to prison staff or inmates. Police said it was possibly an attempt to take control of the prison. [65]
• 2017, 19 June: A van was rammed into people walking near Finsbury Park Mosque in London after tarawih prayers. 10 people were injured, and one person was killed, though it was initially unclear whether this was the result of a previous medical condition. The police declared the incident a terrorist attack.[66][67]

 

[Hades]

The crusades were at least partly a defensive war against the first round of Islamic aggression. Islam was created for war, existed for war from the start and is an almost perfect tool for war as a result. About two-thirds of Christian territory worldwide was conquered by Islam in its initial war of aggression on everyone, which got as far as Tours (~200km from Paris) before being stopped by a strong enough army with a skilled enough commander. Centuries of attacks, slaving raids and constant threat later, the remaining Christian countries unified enough to fight back with some degree of success. The crusades weren't the abject failure you say they were, since they resulted in some of the lost land being retaken (Spain) and some reduction in the threat of further conquest.

If you're looking at historical "meddling" being the cause, then it's...inaccurate...to ignore the historical "meddling" that was the initial cause in order to put the blame solely on one side. It's fashionable to do so, but it's extremely wrong.



The initial Islamic aggression conquered Spain but failed to conquer anywhere else in Europe (that came centuries later with the fall of the Eastern Roman/Byzantine empire). That makes Spain a specific target for the continuing Islamic aggression, which as always has the goal of conquering the world. Retaking Spain would be a useful propaganda move. In a larger sense, everywhere is an obvious target because the target is everywhere. Global conquest is the goal, so everywhere is an obvious target.

Yes it's important to know that the seeds of this go far further back than modern times. The above is valuable history that people should make themselves are of. It's not just about the recent wars in the middle east.

Many parts of Spain have been under Islamic rule in the past. What we're seeing today is just a continuation of a very long running conflict between the western nations and Islam.

 

[DrToffnar]

You still following me around! why not put me on ignore? And you never have anything to add to any thread

I couldn't ever put you on ignore, Deuse. Your like a dog that barks at cars. Often irritating, but that irritation eventually gives way to pity because you realise it doesn't really know much of anything. It ultimately just becomes comical in it's unknowing incessancy.

As to those espousing this idea that the sympathetic efforts of the 'hashtag generation' are doing nothing, if it comforts just one grieving family member, it's done it's job.

 

[FortuitousFluke]

My question is though for those that are more tolerant and perhaps understanding of the Islam problem than I am, when do you say enough is enough??

How many more incidents do you have to witness before you snap? Is there an end to your tolerance with this before you turn around and say that we need some hard measures?

Do you believe that we can go on as we are? Do you believe that the action or inaction (whatever your side of the coin) that our leaders are portraying is enough? Or is this a way of life that you accept that we have to accept?

Nobody is tolerating terrorist attacks, the question which causes the division is around how best do you handle it. There's an element who believe that hard measures don't work, that the only way to effectively stop attacks like this is to try to understand the root psychology and to address the inequalities or marginalisation that lead to people becoming susceptible victims for grooming. That kind of approach is a long term thing. Then on the other side you have the people saying screw that, I don't care if they feel marginalised, they've had every opportunity to become part of society and they chose not too, it's no excuse for violence, lock 'em all up. In reality the correct approach is somewhere in the middle, unfortunately the liberal side see a move to the right as oppression and the hard line see a move to the left as pandering.

Nobody tolerates terrorism, they just have different ideas on the best way to deal with it.

 

[Rifte]

if it comforts just one grieving family member, it's done it's job.

If it does, then agreed its worthwhile. I hasten to add though that I believe that the last thing anyone would look at if a family member had been impacted by this would be FB or twitter.

For me its all throw away comments, the sort of stuff that people copy and paste onto their wall or twitter feed while they are watching tv or sat on the toilet in the morning going through their phone, the sort of stuff that people put no thought process or emotion into. Its deemed as the socially acceptable thing to do.....you need to change your FB profile to show that you care. Silence is a better indicator of sorrow than this rubbish.

 

[FortuitousFluke]

If it does, then agreed its worthwhile. I hasten to add though that I believe that the last thing anyone would look at if a family member had been impacted by this would be FB or twitter.

I think in the immediate aftermath you're right, but then days or weeks after the fact when it all starts to sink in I think it could be an amazing comfort. You often see victims speaking out after the events and mentioning how much public support has meant to them.

 

[DrToffnar]

If it does, then agreed its worthwhile. I hasten to add though that I believe that the last thing anyone would look at if a family member had been impacted by this would be FB or twitter.

For me its all throw away comments, the sort of stuff that people copy and paste onto their wall or twitter feed while they are watching tv or sat on the toilet in the morning going through their phone, the sort of stuff that people put no thought process or emotion into. Its deemed as the socially acceptable thing to do.....you need to change your FB profile to show that you care. Silence is a better indicator of sorrow than this rubbish.

Oh I've no doubt some definitely do so because they perceive it the 'proper' thing to do, but not everyone. To assume so is just blind cynicism imo. As human beings, it's what we do. We grieve with each other, regardless of distance or relation. Solidarity is the backbone of any civilised society, it's just that we have more of a platform to establish it now.

 

[Mak3R]

Terrible news, hard to read.
I'm going on holiday in 2 weeks, staying in Cambrils and was planning a day trip to Barcelona. Makes you stop and think.

 

[CosmicClown]

Whats the betting you see people putting spanish flags on their facebook profiles with some stupid platitude.

 

[BriT]

Jeez what is wrong with people.

 

[Concrete]

Terrible news, hard to read.
I'm going on holiday in 2 weeks, staying in Cambrils and was planning a day trip to Barcelona. Makes you stop and think.

I'm here now, its business as usual, armed police presence on the streets is heavy, but then it always has been. Just get on with enjoying your holiday!

 

[Mak3R]

I'm here now, its business as usual, armed police presence on the streets is heavy, but then it always has been. Just get on with enjoying your holiday!

Cool thanks, I will

 

[RoboCod]

Whats the betting you see people putting spanish flags on their facebook profiles with some stupid platitude.

So what if they do though? It says more about you and your snide consideration of them really.

 

[beachBOYken]

So what if they do though? It says more about you and your snide consideration of them really.

Was thinking the same, why does this bother some if people do, really strange.

 

[RoboCod]

Was thinking the same, why does this bother some if people do, really strange.

You know what's worse than people putting pointless flag's on their profiles?

 

[MookJong]

Jeez what is wrong with people.

Brainwashed by a fairy story into killing basically.

 

[LabR@t]

Change comes over time, you try and engage and include the youngsters so they feel part of your society and not ostracised from it.

Same reason (in general) that we are less racist than our parents, and our kids will be less racist than us.

And yet we live in a more violent, divisive world.
Please explain why.

 

[VincentHanna]

And yet we live in a more violent, divisive world.
Please explain why.

Than when exactly? More violent and divisive than World War II? More violent and divisive than the Hippy 60's (when Vietnam was happening and the civil rights movement was in full effect?)

Reposted from earlier:

Has it occurred to you that with 24 hours rolling news and twitter and Youtube and the internet and instant reporting that we're just a lot more aware of all the issues now, than when we got news at 6 and 10 p.m?

 

[Christmas themed thank]

Digital Spy comments basically say we should send all the Muslims back but what they don't seem to understand is that as these people were born here, you'd be sending them back to the UK...