Barcelona Incident

[Fishbait]

Must be something in the water...
Knifeman in Russia attacks people in Surgut street.

 

[Amp34]

Much assumption. Without real numbers you can't say they're similar or greater in size either way. However, judging by what is seen, it may be fair to believe there are many more of the Antifa and similar types.

Fair point regarding the numbers, however there probably is some data out there from police/security services. I guess for the latter point it depends what you consider "similar types".

Oh and you're bunching UKIP with Nazis and fascists. Classic

No, not at all, infact I clearly stated that wasn't the case. H4rm0ny is broadly lumping a significant proportion of people with "left" wing views into the Antifa movement. My point was that if you do that you'd need to lump a significant proportion of those with "right" wing views into the same group as the nazis. I don't agree with either grouping.

Do you consider UKIP a more "right" wing wing party? Do you consider Trump a "right" wing president? Do you consider the Neo-Nazi ideology far right? Do you then consider Corbyn "left" wing, do you consider BLM "left" wing, do you consider Antifa far "left"?

There's as much a difference between you're average "left" wing campaigner and Antifa as there is with your average UKIP campaigner and Neo nazis.

 

[RoboCod]

Fair point regarding the numbers, however there probably is some data out there from police/security services. I guess for the latter point it depends what you consider "similar types".



No, not at all, infact I clearly stated that wasn't the case. H4rm0ny is broadly lumping a significant proportion of people with "left" wing views into the Antifa movement. My point was that if you do that you'd need to lump a significant proportion of those with "right" wing views into the same group as the nazis. I don't agree with either grouping.

Do you consider UKIP a more "right" wing wing party? Do you consider Trump a "right" wing president? Do you consider the Neo-Nazi ideology far right? Do you then consider Corbyn "left" wing, do you consider BLM "left" wing, do you consider Antifa far "left"?

There's as much a difference between you're average "left" wing campaigner and Antifa as there is with your average UKIP campaigner and Neo nazis.

Fair points also. I guess it's very much down to perception. As discussed above, the perception for some is that the neo Nazis are an insignificant non threat. For others, they're a real problem and vice versa.

Actual figures and categorisation would be preferable but I guess that's also impossible given the fluid nature of political stance.

 

[Amp34]

Utterly wrong. Antifa outnumber Openly White Supremacists and Nazis dramatically. Come to any demo you like and odds are the "fascists" are vastly outnumbered. Just as a non definitive example, there were reportedly about 250 people showed up for the Unite The Right protest. The counter-protestors numbered in their thousands. And you'll see the pattern repeated over and over.

Which reinforces the point I made.

Your definition of Antifa appears to be anyone that protests against anything considered remotely "right" wing.

As mentioned by others in that thread, it's basically the same as arguing that anyone that protests against anything remotely "left" wing as a nazi.

And in which case I'd argue there's still an issue with your argument because Donald Trump is currently the most powerful person in the US, someone who would certainly be considered part of the rights version of Antifa.

Doesn't really make sense does it?

Antifa is generally reserved by most of the rest of society for use against those who use violence to push their "left" wing narrative, not just stand up and protest/complain. That group of Antifa are a very small number, just like those Neo nazis in Charlottesville. The vast majority of those protesting in Charlottesville we're not Antifa.

Perhaps a mod could move these posts into the other thread so we can continue the conversation there, far more relevant than this thread?

 

[Amp34]

Fair points also. I guess it's very much down to perception. As discussed above, the perception for some is that the neo Nazis are an insignificant non threat. For others, they're a real problem and vice versa.

Actual figures and categorisation would be preferable but I guess that's also impossible given the fluid nature of political stance.

I think we can both agree that if both of them ****** off it would probably be better for everyone.

To be fair, your quotes that he posted suggest you're debating with yourself.

You'll have to explain why, both are essentially saying the same thing.

 

[h4rm0ny]

No, not at all, infact I clearly stated that wasn't the case. H4rm0ny is broadly lumping a significant proportion of people with "left" wing views into the Antifa movement.

I am. So perhaps you have a point. I'm not indiscrimantly lumping them in though. To be clear, I DID distinguish between problems caused by the Left in general and those caused by specifically the militant Left / Antifa. I referred to both in my post but if you'll look you'll see I categorised them separately. I do concede that I see a lot of overlap and connection between the two groups though. And you may observe that many White Supremacists and Nazis support some of the more mainstream politicans and policies on the Right. (Although they always think they don't go far enough). The differences I'll draw though are as follows:

• The Right routinely condemns groups like White Supremacists and Nazis. The Left tacitly supports its more militant wings.
• Both media and academia routinely condemn groups like White Supremacists and Nazis. Both routinely turn a blind eye or even support militant left wingers. Had Nazis done to Hamburg what Black Block anti-capitalists did to it, there would have been endless coverage and criticism.
• White Supremacists and Nazis are not generally actually Right Wing. Antifa usually are genuinely communist or socialist. You will try to reject this as a double standard but I have had some fairly extensive conversations with groups of antifa and anarchists (almost always anarcho-communist) and generally they have at least a basic understanding of their political ideology and social politics, sometimes pretty deep. Your average Nazi can barely spell their political ideology. For this reason and the above two, there's a much smoother gradiation as you move from Left Wing militancy to mainstream Left Wing politics than there is with Right Wing where there is a sharp break. As I say, W/S and Nazis are kind of their own special and repugnant block. They might wave the odd Trump banner or Confederate Flag, but they're actually pretty isolated.
• Numbers. The number of militant Left dwarfs the number of W/S and Nazis. By several multiples. That makes one much scarier than the other even before you factor in media and academic acceptance as above.
• Left Wing militants focus a lot on shutting down dialogue. Whereas the W/S and Nazis are fighting for a voice. I don't want to listen to Nazi rubbish but their struggle to get attention is a lot less threatening to me than the Militant Left's determination to shut down speech that they disagree with. The one is a minor threat, the other a fundamental attack on our freedoms.

So that's not a rigorous analysis - it's late and I was just having a skim through the thread out of interest and saw my name. However, I think that's a good if not comprehensive reply. I "lumped" in generic Left wing with militant Left Wing more so than I do its counterparts, because, primarily, I see more acceptance of militancy on the Left. There could be a bias at play - I do, after all, self-identify as Right Wing. However, reviewing the above I think everything in it is supportable and accords with my actual experiences.

 

[LabR@t]

I am. So perhaps you have a point. I'm not indiscrimantly lumping them in though. To be clear, I DID distinguish between problems caused by the Left in general and those caused by specifically the militant Left / Antifa. I referred to both in my post but if you'll look you'll see I categorised them separately. I do concede that I see a lot of overlap and connection between the two groups though. And you may observe that many White Supremacists and Nazis support some of the more mainstream politicans and policies on the Right. (Although they always think they don't go far enough). The differences I'll draw though are as follows:

• The Right routinely condemns groups like White Supremacists and Nazis. The Left tacitly supports its more militant wings.
• Both media and academia routinely condemn groups like White Supremacists and Nazis. Both routinely turn a blind eye or even support militant left wingers. Had Nazis done to Hamburg what Black Block anti-capitalists did to it, there would have been endless coverage and criticism.
• White Supremacists and Nazis are not generally actually Right Wing. Antifa usually are genuinely communist or socialist. You will try to reject this as a double standard but I have had some fairly extensive conversations with groups of antifa and anarchists (almost always anarcho-communist) and generally they have at least a basic understanding of their political ideology and social politics, sometimes pretty deep. Your average Nazi can barely spell their political ideology. For this reason and the above two, there's a much smoother gradiation as you move from Left Wing militancy to mainstream Left Wing politics than there is with Right Wing where there is a sharp break. As I say, W/S and Nazis are kind of their own special and repugnant block. They might wave the odd Trump banner or Confederate Flag, but they're actually pretty isolated.
• Numbers. The number of militant Left dwarfs the number of W/S and Nazis. By several multiples. That makes one much scarier than the other even before you factor in media and academic acceptance as above.
• Left Wing militants focus a lot on shutting down dialogue. Whereas the W/S and Nazis are fighting for a voice. I don't want to listen to Nazi rubbish but their struggle to get attention is a lot less threatening to me than the Militant Left's determination to shut down speech that they disagree with. The one is a minor threat, the other a fundamental attack on our freedoms.

So that's not a rigorous analysis - it's late and I was just having a skim through the thread out of interest and saw my name. However, I think that's a good if not comprehensive reply. I "lumped" in generic Left wing with militant Left Wing more so than I do its counterparts, because, primarily, I see more acceptance of militancy on the Left. There could be a bias at play - I do, after all, self-identify as Right Wing. However, reviewing the above I think everything in it is supportable and accords with my actual experiences.

So glad people are waking up to the real threat.

 

[GTiPUG]

I am. So perhaps you have a point. I'm not indiscrimantly lumping them in though. To be clear, I DID distinguish between problems caused by the Left in general and those caused by specifically the militant Left / Antifa. I referred to both in my post but if you'll look you'll see I categorised them separately. I do concede that I see a lot of overlap and connection between the two groups though. And you may observe that many White Supremacists and Nazis support some of the more mainstream politicans and policies on the Right. (Although they always think they don't go far enough). The differences I'll draw though are as follows:

• The Right routinely condemns groups like White Supremacists and Nazis. The Left tacitly supports its more militant wings.
• Both media and academia routinely condemn groups like White Supremacists and Nazis. Both routinely turn a blind eye or even support militant left wingers. Had Nazis done to Hamburg what Black Block anti-capitalists did to it, there would have been endless coverage and criticism.
• White Supremacists and Nazis are not generally actually Right Wing. Antifa usually are genuinely communist or socialist. You will try to reject this as a double standard but I have had some fairly extensive conversations with groups of antifa and anarchists (almost always anarcho-communist) and generally they have at least a basic understanding of their political ideology and social politics, sometimes pretty deep. Your average Nazi can barely spell their political ideology. For this reason and the above two, there's a much smoother gradiation as you move from Left Wing militancy to mainstream Left Wing politics than there is with Right Wing where there is a sharp break. As I say, W/S and Nazis are kind of their own special and repugnant block. They might wave the odd Trump banner or Confederate Flag, but they're actually pretty isolated.
• Numbers. The number of militant Left dwarfs the number of W/S and Nazis. By several multiples. That makes one much scarier than the other even before you factor in media and academic acceptance as above.
• Left Wing militants focus a lot on shutting down dialogue. Whereas the W/S and Nazis are fighting for a voice. I don't want to listen to Nazi rubbish but their struggle to get attention is a lot less threatening to me than the Militant Left's determination to shut down speech that they disagree with. The one is a minor threat, the other a fundamental attack on our freedoms.

So that's not a rigorous analysis - it's late and I was just having a skim through the thread out of interest and saw my name. However, I think that's a good if not comprehensive reply. I "lumped" in generic Left wing with militant Left Wing more so than I do its counterparts, because, primarily, I see more acceptance of militancy on the Left. There could be a bias at play - I do, after all, self-identify as Right Wing. However, reviewing the above I think everything in it is supportable and accords with my actual experiences.

Very well written, I'd hope most of the country would agree but I do worry...

 

[IronWarrior]

I am. So perhaps you have a point. I'm not indiscrimantly lumping them in though. To be clear, I DID distinguish between problems caused by the Left in general and those caused by specifically the militant Left / Antifa. I referred to both in my post but if you'll look you'll see I categorised them separately. I do concede that I see a lot of overlap and connection between the two groups though. And you may observe that many White Supremacists and Nazis support some of the more mainstream politicans and policies on the Right. (Although they always think they don't go far enough). The differences I'll draw though are as follows:

• The Right routinely condemns groups like White Supremacists and Nazis. The Left tacitly supports its more militant wings.
• Both media and academia routinely condemn groups like White Supremacists and Nazis. Both routinely turn a blind eye or even support militant left wingers. Had Nazis done to Hamburg what Black Block anti-capitalists did to it, there would have been endless coverage and criticism.
• White Supremacists and Nazis are not generally actually Right Wing. Antifa usually are genuinely communist or socialist. You will try to reject this as a double standard but I have had some fairly extensive conversations with groups of antifa and anarchists (almost always anarcho-communist) and generally they have at least a basic understanding of their political ideology and social politics, sometimes pretty deep. Your average Nazi can barely spell their political ideology. For this reason and the above two, there's a much smoother gradiation as you move from Left Wing militancy to mainstream Left Wing politics than there is with Right Wing where there is a sharp break. As I say, W/S and Nazis are kind of their own special and repugnant block. They might wave the odd Trump banner or Confederate Flag, but they're actually pretty isolated.
• Numbers. The number of militant Left dwarfs the number of W/S and Nazis. By several multiples. That makes one much scarier than the other even before you factor in media and academic acceptance as above.
• Left Wing militants focus a lot on shutting down dialogue. Whereas the W/S and Nazis are fighting for a voice. I don't want to listen to Nazi rubbish but their struggle to get attention is a lot less threatening to me than the Militant Left's determination to shut down speech that they disagree with. The one is a minor threat, the other a fundamental attack on our freedoms.

So that's not a rigorous analysis - it's late and I was just having a skim through the thread out of interest and saw my name. However, I think that's a good if not comprehensive reply. I "lumped" in generic Left wing with militant Left Wing more so than I do its counterparts, because, primarily, I see more acceptance of militancy on the Left. There could be a bias at play - I do, after all, self-identify as Right Wing. However, reviewing the above I think everything in it is supportable and accords with my actual experiences.

That's a solid post.

 

[Freakbro]

White Supremacists and Nazis are not generally actually Right Wing.

Hmm

There could be a bias at play - I do, after all, self-identify as Right Wing.

I don't think there's any could about that at all

However, reviewing the above I think everything in it is supportable and accords with my actual experiences.

How many white supremacists and neo-Nazis did you chat with to come up with your anecdotal musings?

 

[RoboCod]

Left winger angry at right winger none shocker

 

[Freakbro]

Good, as we wouldn't want to give you any shocks this early in the morning but who's angry?

 

[Participant]

Left wingers are so dangerous, because they believe in equivalence of outcome, not equivalence of opportunity, which is communism, which is unsustainable economically and which has killed millions of people in the last century. Like fascism, which is also a left wing trait.

 

[Destination]

BARCELONA
Nothing to do with left and right wing.
Why isn't all this Nazi/Antifa talk in the other thread?

Has Islamic terrorism decided if it is pro or against the removal of American civil war statues? Were they so outraged they drove a truck down the street in Barcelona?

 

[Freakbro]

Like fascism, which is also a left wing trait.

This keeps being said, but isn't fascism irrespective of the left / right axis of the political spectrum but the up / down, authoritarian / liberal axis? So it's not a trait necessarily associated with either side.

As Angillion posted in the other thread, the reason this gets mixed up is the completely broken use of the word liberal nowadays.

 

[Participant]

This keeps being said, but isn't fascism irrespective of the left / right axis of the political spectrum but the up / down, authoritarian / liberal axis? So it's not a trait necessarily associated with either side.

Was Mussolini, the founding father of modern fascism, left wing or right wing? The left don't like the answer, of course.

Fascism is markedly left wing because its ideologies include the suppression of free speech and the central control of industry and commerce. Are you going to tell me these are right wing traits?

 

[Freakbro]

Was Mussolini, the founding father of modern fascism, left wing or right wing?

What I am reading from googling around seems to be putting him on the far right side of the political axis, and very high up on the authoritarian scale.

When he took control of the the Italian fascist he said : 'We declare war against socialism' - doesn't sound that left wing to me, but I am admitting, I don't know a huge amount about it so am happy to be corrected.

Fascism is markedly left wing because its ideologies include the suppression of free speech

Again, that's not a particularly left trait, but an authoritarian one, as exhibited by both left and right wing authoritarian leaders

An example of what I am meaning about not just the linear left right political axis http://www.atheismandthecity.com/2017/04/my-political-compass.html

and the central control of industry and commerce. Are you going to tell me these are right wing traits?

Again, there is a difference between social left/right ideologies and economic ones and people can exhibit opposing views within each

 

[VincentHanna]

Mussolini was as right wing as it gets.

 

[Freakbro]

Mussolini was as right wing as it gets.

Well, that's what I always thought, but Participant has been repeating for a few days now that he was a leftie, so i'm interested to hear why he's come to that conclusion

 

[TheVoice]

BARCELONA
Nothing to do with left and right wing.
Why isn't all this Nazi/Antifa talk in the other thread?

Has Islamic terrorism decided if it is pro or against the removal of American civil war statues? Were they so outraged they drove a truck down the street in Barcelona?

I get the impression the mods are hoping these threads just burn themselves out now.