Barcelona Incident

Freakbro said:
I don't have to think it, I have read people saying it on this forum.

Hell, proposed actions against terrorism have been, kick out every Muslim, stop every Muslim coming to the west, ban Islam and some corkers just from last night, ban anyone with a middle eastern name from hiring a van, microchip every Muslim.

These don't seem to be the reactions of people who think that the majority (Christ, Arazi still argues 1% isn't a minority) of Muslims are peaceful moderate people not responsible for the actions of the extremists.
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I simply stated that the minority is NOT a small number, are you really thick or just being stubborn? And you and Amp seem to like to name drop me in various posts, another underhanded tactic to try and shut someone down.

I am also getting fed up of the mods allowing you to do that, you name drop people, you come across as a slimey *******.
 
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Guys lets stop fighting, nazi cosplayers are bad mkay, lets unite and teardown the Walt Disney statue in Disneyland as it's a reminder to kids of our racist past, antifa4life yo
 
The increased violence among the far right and increase in popularity of the right in general is basically a reaction to flawed leftist political ideology that has seen decades of industrial scale child abuse which has been covered up by the lefties in power and also their policies of free movement/open borders without checks that has enabled domestic terrorism on a far greater scale than was ever possible. I don't think a few far right nutjobs even compares to the damage the left has done over the years through bad policy, even now in the US when they're out of power they're stoking the flames to start a civil war.

Also, it wasn't long ago that Jeremy Corbyn who could well be prime minister in a few years was praising Venezuela as an example to the UK and look at how that turned out, people standing up against their government due to the basketcase economy that Corbyn wants are being killed daily.
 
Arazi said:
I simply stated that the minority is NOT a small number, are you really think or just being stubborn? And you and Amp seem to like to name drop me in various posts, another underhanded tactic to try and shut someone down.

I am also getting fed up of the mods allowing you to do that, you name drop people, you come across as a slimey *******.
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That makes no sense, we're on a public discussion forum and you are complaining about people mentioning you ref: your views :confused:

If you don't want anyone to know about or discuss your sympathies then don't post them on a public forum and if you are confident about them why would anyone else disagreeing with them shut you down?

And for the record, i've just searched my posts for your name and I can only see I've 'name dropped' you 4 times, 3 of them regarding this 1% and minority issue ;)

Don't fret, you aren't that important to me :)
 
Dis86 said:
The extreme left used violence against them.

The extreme.left see those with right leaning views as inferior to themselves.

They are equally as bad.
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Yet the extreme left don't regularly go out and kill people. The far right do.

There really is no comparable, especially when the extreme left/Antifa appears to be defined as anyone that doesn't agree with white nationalists and Neo nazis.

Whens the last time we had a far left terrorist or murderer? When's the last time we've had a far right terrorist/murder? Give you a clue - there's been at least two in the last week.

No, neither side should be using violence, but there's a distinct difference in the level of violence used by both sides in the western world.
 
h4rm0ny said:
This isn't a reply to you specifically RDM, but your post makes an excellent leaping off point for something I want to say.

A lot of those criticising us keep focusing on whether Nazis are "equally bad" as Antifa. And they want us to say this is false - that Nazis are far worse. They see people equating these two groups and it angers them because they of course consider Nazis to be far worse. But the reason for the resistance to just nod and agree with them isn't to do with relative morality of Nazis and Antifa. It's because we don't see it as a question of who is most evil. We see it as a question of who is dangerous. And frankly, 250 protestors (estimate I found for those showing up for Unite The Right), some disproportionately photographed faction of which are Nazis, don't scare me much. Such people are a tiny minority in the USA and the UK. Worth keeping an eye on but realistically, I don't feel much threatened by such people. There always have been and always will be idiots and fringe political groups. Conversely I DO feel threatened by Antifa and all those aligned with them who want to shut down free speech, criminalise beliefs, smash down the existing power structures in favour of one governed by their values, etc. The number of such people is very large and they have a disproportionate effect relative to their numbers on public policy, on law-making and on one's actual life. They are the ones who get people fired for their beliefs, set fire to university campuses, prevent people from speaking in public, and more.

So all those who keep demanding: "Say Nazis are worse, say Nazis are worse!" wont get what they want. It's not because ethically people don't think they're worse. It's because we're saying in practical effect, we don't think they're worse. Or at least that we think they're just the same.

It's not a moral question. It's a practical one. And if it's a practical one then two groups who both want to bring violence are the same. You can keep demanding moral answers, but you're asking it of practical people.
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That's because you're not comparing like for like, something others have done as well.

Antifa are a small group of people, probably similar in number to the number of openly white supremacists/Neo nazis.

The issue you have is with the political "left", who are comparable to the political "right", which broadly means the group you're comparing to the Neo nazis are far more comparable to the likes of Donald Trump, Bannan and to an extent Farage, alongside people that harbour views simpathetic to some (not all) of those of the supremacists and nazis. These people are just as large a group as you say you're worried about.

Neither of those groups are extreme or violent, but they harbour views seen by the other side as bad.

What you've just done is disingenuous at best tbh.
 
Much assumption. Without real numbers you can't say they're similar or greater in size either way. However, judging by what is seen, it may be fair to believe there are many more of the Antifa and similar types.

Oh and you're bunching UKIP with Nazis and fascists. Classic
 
RIP to the victims god bless them and their relatives. I have family in Barcelona they went out the next evening as did many locals glad to see they are not letting terrorists win.
 
TJM said:
The few waving Nazi flags are just the most visible members of a profoundly xenophobic, racist, authoritarian and sexist movement that the current occupant of the White House is keen to keep on side. You're complaining about a handful of cancelled university lectures and other things that some internet users are obsessed with but have no impact in the wider world (ask a randomer what a 'safe space' is and they'll likely have no clue), while in the US access to abortion is restricted, black suspects can be killed with legal impunity and immigrants are hounded by the authorities and private militias. It's pretty obvious to me that the greater threat to the rights and opportunities of the greatest number of people does not come from an odd-ball collection of anarchists, communists, anti-fascists and Twitter users with virtually no representation in government. Right-wing extremists and the politicians who want their support are inflicting huge harm on others every day of the week.
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On the contrary, I can point to numerous instances of the Left eroding rights to free speech in Europe, pushing for legislation and hiring practices I disagree with. I can point to instances of intimidation, pressure not to report on important topics. I can provide examples of militant Left (e.g. Antifa) assaulting people, rioting, pelting coaches with stones. I could go on forever. And on the other hand, I can think of zero pieces of legislation, corporate policy, media suppression et al. from "Nazis" and White Supremacists. And in the area of violence, occasional sporadic attacks but not large scale violence or rioting. Not at this time. When I look at rioters in Hamburg or people tearing down statues and blocking off airports, I see the Left. Not this bogeyman of White Supremacists and Nazis. Sure they exist, but the threat they pose is far less.

Amp34 said:
That's because you're not comparing like for like, something others have done as well.

Antifa are a small group of people, probably similar in number to the number of openly white supremacists/Neo nazis.
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Utterly wrong. Antifa outnumber Openly White Supremacists and Nazis dramatically. Come to any demo you like and odds are the "fascists" are vastly outnumbered. Just as a non definitive example, there were reportedly about 250 people showed up for the Unite The Right protest. The counter-protestors numbered in their thousands. And you'll see the pattern repeated over and over.
 
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Skunkworks said:
Left and BLM kill cops and attempt to kill congressman. And let's not forget about all the vids of Trump suporters being attacked.

Anti-Donald Trump campaigner 'shoots Republican neighbour twice in the head'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...lican-dead-head-george-jennings-a7895966.html
...
A lone gunman who was said to be distraught over President Trump’s election opened fire on members of the Republican congressional baseball team

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/14/us/steve-scalise-congress-shot-alexandria-virginia.html
...
On July 7, 2016, Micah Xavier Johnson ambushed and fired upon a group of police officers in Dallas, Texas, killing five officers and injuring nine others. Two civilians were also wounded. Johnson was an Army Reserve Afghan War veteran who was reportedly angry over police shootings of black men and stated that he wanted to kill white people, especially white police officers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_shooting_of_Dallas_police_officers

​
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Thanks for providing examples, I forgot about the congressman.

The second one is a rather more dificult matter as to whether it was "left" related or not, but even if we say it is the tally is still significantly lower than the far right death toll. That's if of course whether you consider the latter as a rigjt wing extremism, which is a debate in itself. You don't have to be white to be racist or far right.​


Ah yes, I've been watching this one slowly evolve on the forum. It went a little something like this:

Amp34 et al: Far-right violence is much worse than Islamic violence!
Normal person: *produces metrics showing that Islamic violence is far worse*
Amp34 et al: Well, ISIS are quintessential far right! *adds ISIS tally to far-right* See, look how much far right violence there is!

Terrorism is named after its motivation, which is why terrorism inspired by Islam is called Islamic, not far-right, and I’m pretty sure you know this.

Seriously, it’s getting to the point where I’m not sure whether you (et al) are parody accounts, utterly ignorant, or just ******* liars.
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I se your issue now. You can't read. :)

I'd like you to point out where I've actually said that, and where the metric shows they are far worse. In fact in this very thread we discussed this and I provided a link to a metric showing that far right extremism was worse in number of incidents, but slightly less in death toll in the US, the location I had figures for, Trusty hasn't provided any evidence to refute that yet, would you like to? ;)

And yes I understand the naming nomenclature, that doesn't mean it's still not a far right aligned sentiment, which coincidentally you haven't actually refuted.

So let's get this clear again. We need to formulate a proportionate response to the problem of terrorism. Let's not pick and choose which terrorism we thing is better or worse while we're at it (you know, the point being made earlier that you've again taken out of context).

Do you honestly think banning people with Muslim sounding names from hiring vans is going to solve the problem? Do you honestly think rounding up and thousands of people and incarcerating them without trial or judicial system is something a western democracy should do - if so should it be just Muslims, or all people on that list, including white British far right extremists? Do you honestly think rounding anyone Muslim up and interning them is also a solution?

Don't deflect here, these are the suggestions I've been directly taking about in this thread. Do you agree with those solutions or not?
 
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Amp34 said:
Yet the extreme left don't regularly go out and kill people. The far right do.

There really is no comparable, especially when the extreme left/Antifa appears to be defined as anyone that doesn't agree with white nationalists and Neo nazis.

Whens the last time we had a far left terrorist or murderer? When's the last time we've had a far right terrorist/murder? Give you a clue - there's been at least two in the last week.

No, neither side should be using violence, but there's a distinct difference in the level of violence used by both sides in the western world.
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Amp34 said:
That's because you're not comparing like for like, something others have done as well.

Antifa are a small group of people, probably similar in number to the number of openly white supremacists/Neo nazis.

The issue you have is with the political "left", who are comparable to the political "right", which broadly means the group you're comparing to the Neo nazis are far more comparable to the likes of Donald Trump, Bannan and to an extent Farage, alongside people that harbour views simpathetic to some (not all) of those of the supremacists and nazis. These people are just as large a group as you say you're worried about.

Neither of those groups are extreme or violent, but they harbour views seen by the other side as bad.

What you've just done is disingenuous at best tbh.
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Ok, I've decided, parody account.
 
Arazi said:
I do not support NAZI's.

There you have it, don't support their view or have even slightly to the right views you are labelled a racist and now the new buzzword is NAZI.

Again, BS
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Wow! Now change a couple of names...

Arazi said:
I do not support ISIS's.

There you have it, don't support their view or have even slightly to the right views you are labelled a racist and now the new buzzword is Apologist.

Again, BS
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And you have exactly what people have been pointing out to you for the last couple of years.

Now obviously you'll ignore this as inconvenient as usual, or perhaps you just won't be able to reach the keyboard with all the knots you've tied yourself up it trying to explain it away. :p
 
Arazi said:
I simply stated that the minority is NOT a small number, are you really thick or just being stubborn? And you and Amp seem to like to name drop me in various posts, another underhanded tactic to try and shut someone down.

I am also getting fed up of the mods allowing you to do that, you name drop people, you come across as a slimey *******.
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Actually the name dropping has nothing to do with shutting the debate down, completely the opposite in fact.

You're refusing to debate points and I'd like to continue the debate. That's why I keep asking for a response from you.

Your use of apologist however is a prime example of trying to shut down the debate. Someone writes a lengthy reply to what you've said, and you're response is regularly "lol, apologist", and absolutely no response to the actual content of the post.
 
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