Merge in turn vigilantes

[ttaskmaster]

Wow... just wow. That really is being a complete **** about something that people genuinely think they are in the right and could be resolved with an approach with that in mind - these people aren't being intentionally awkward and like 90% would adapt their approach made properly aware.

"Back in my day you could have a few pints and drive home, no worries".
That's basically paraphrasing something my own dad has said, himself a professional driver of 80-ton double trailer HGVs, and who continued to flaunt the law like that until cancer robbed him of his licence. Truth was, unless you tested him, he drove so well that you'd never know... but he knew darn well it was wrong.

But even today, despite ALL the campaigns, adverts, angles, and the like, we STILL get people drink-driving.
Awareness campaiging helps a little, but nowhere near as much.

People have their own blind spots are are acutely aware of them, as evidenced by the number of people ranting about others sitting in theirs, yet just you watch them do the exact same thing...
I'm fairly sure people know not to break the speed limit too, especially past speed cameras... but guess what!!

I really had a higher estimation of you as a person than that.

Either you are gulible enough to believe all the people who claim ignorance (in similar estimation of your own person, I wouldn't have thought you were), or you're a solicitor trying to get your idiot client off a nasty charge.

Look to the very 90% of people you're championing, if you want to talk about overestimating - They've been peppered with awareness campaigns about all sorts of things on all possible media platforms, they know DAMN WELL what they're doing is wrong.
I'd say maybe 5-10% are the ones completely unaware of what they're doing and then only because they do not care, as Sixes says.
I'm talking the ones who derive no pleasure from driving at all, perhaps even hate it and only do it as a means to get to work and back... perhaps shouldn't even be driving in the first place.

Show them the Highway Code all you like. We do several such initiatives every year here at work - They'll pay it as much attention as they do the Owners Manual section covering what maintenance they're supposed to do... the fact that it's in the Owners manual is the clue as to who's supposed to do it.
Difference is, if they're lazy about the manual, people like me can make money off doing it for them or fixing it when they don't. If they're lazy about some road laws, people will scam them for it... and if they're lazy about some others, people die.

We have campainged and campainged and campainged. It's not effective enough. We now need to clamp down and actually give them a reason to make sure they're in the right:

The problem lies in trying to change opinion without a relatable, proven detrimental effect to the individual. Without that, people just don't care. Its doubly hard in this case because you have to get these people to admit that they are wrong and have been wrong the whole time.

^ Very much so!

 

[Rroff]

championing

Your mistake is thinking I'm championing them - I'm not. This is very different to something like drink driving where most people that do it do know its wrong in the back of their mind at least - with merging while some have trouble admitting what they've been doing all this time is wrong most had no idea that there could be any two ways about it never mind they might not be using the correct approach.

Personally I only found out by pure chance about zip merging - I was 100% never taught about it and everyone I've ever been in a car with has approached it the "wrong" way - I've dug out the old material I was given by my driving instructor and there isn't a mention of it - the copy of the highway code only has a passing vague note about it that isn't clear at all if you don't read it already knowing about it :s personally I've subsequently modified my approach towards those situations.

 

[ttaskmaster]

Your mistake is thinking I'm championing them - I'm not.

..... so you're saying you are gullible....??!!

Nah, I do have a heart, but I'm also acutely aware of how badly things can turn out just from some very minor detail rapidly escalating. Everyone makes mistakes, including me and I'm sure there are gaps in my own knowledge. We can only do the best we can, but the higher we raise that standard, the better we will do.
I'm also in favour of fairly heavy-handed tactics, such as the Australian approach to drink driving - No stand-up comedy hack singing about "********" there - Just hard hitting wake-ups on the reality. If you still get it wrong in the face of all that, you deserve everything you get.

with merging while some have trouble admitting what they've been doing all this time is wrong most had no idea that there could be any two ways about it never mind they might not be using the correct approach.

I know.
Even after they have killed someone and been jailed for it, they'll argue they were in the right... Doesn't make it so, though.
I find very few people actually have no genuine idea they're in the wrong, though... and even fewer who will change.

Personally I only found out by pure chance about zip merging - I was 100% never taught about it and everyone I've ever been in a car with has approached it the "wrong" way

It's still in the Highway Code, though, which is enough from a legal standpoint.
But additionally, the Highways Authority already have run awareness campaigns, one of which is what started the Merge In Turn signs thing in the first place. Originally for use at roadworks pinch points, they started using the signs elsewhere, such as at the end of dual carriageways and on approach to/actually on motorway entry sliproads, where no clear priority is immediately apparrent.

Arguably, the campaigns did not work as we're still arguing about it here, both on the right way and with people trying to justify their way with morality over legality.

But people seemingly respond better to either falling foul of the law themselves, or knowing "a mate who got done for" something. Certainly whenever I hear one motorist chastising or cautioning another, it's never a rant about the intricacies of the Highway Code (unless you're a MAG rider), it's always anecdotes about the punishments and the number of people they know who "got done" for it, with the assumption that it's clearly wrong if someone got done in the first place, however light the punishment.

 

[Rroff]

That is hardly a campaign though - I've seen like 3 of those signs on my travels - the problem is that it will never be solved until the majority start doing it as individually people won't consider that them going against the grain will accomplish much so it needs a far bigger reaching campaign - it is the only way it will ever be resolved regardless of the technical ins and outs or legal rights or wrongs.

It is something I've got a lot of resentment about, especially high brow attitudes towards people who know no better because I don't consider my previous lack of awareness a fault of my own, I know the vast majority of those that I've been in a car with and have approached it the wrong way genuinely don't know any better, the moment I was made aware of it I modified my own attitude towards it. I was brought up seeing people doing it one way, the literature I had was insufficient to correct my perception (and obviously not sufficient to correct most people) and it certainly wasn't brought up by my driving instructor.

 

[McPhee]

It doesn't. The Highway Code encourages merge in turn at any lane closure/ending etc.

Starfleet Regulation 134 Highway Code Rule 134

I know.

The point was, the alternative makes no sense. Without the requirement to merge in turn, there is no point in adding a second lane to reduce congestion as all traffic in the second lane will simply sit there.

 

[ttaskmaster]

That is hardly a campaign though - I've seen like 3 of those signs on my travels

Quite a few round here. Same for Aylesbury. Same for Scotland, even...
If it's insufficient round your way, perhaps you can approach your MP to get another campaign going?

TBH, I don't really care. There are so many things people don't do properly on the road anyway, you just learn to leave allowances for their stupidity. What *I* find the problem with is the increasing number of people who do it on purpose, with malice or outright intent to **** you over for their own ends. No amount of awareness campaigning is going to make them care, though.

It is something I've got a lot of resentment about, especially high brow attitudes towards people who know no better because I don't consider my previous lack of awareness a fault of my own

Drivers are supposed to read the Highway Code periodically and stay up to date with road laws. That's what they tell you in driving lessons, nowadays.
From a legal standpoint, you are supposed to know better and the information is freely published for that reason.

 

[[TW]Fox]

the literature I had was insufficient to correct my perception

How did you pass your theory without being able to find a copy of the highway code?

 

[tom_e]

How did you pass your theory without being able to find a copy of the highway code?

I've never read the highway code yet passed both my car and motorcycle theory first time, it's common sense.

 

[[TW]Fox]

I've never read the highway code yet passed both my car and motorcycle theory first time, it's common sense.

You guessed the stopping distances then?

 

[tom_e]

You guessed the stopping distances then?

I probably picked the most sensible sounding one if the question came up, but I certainly couldn't tell you them now off the top of my head yet I don't make a habit of rolling into the back of vehicles or missing my turnings because I can't quote them.

Edit: I should say rather than never read it, I didn't read it to pass my tests. I have since then read some parts to check random bits and bobs.

 

[robj20]

I didnt really read the highway code just did the practice cd over and over, eventually you just know which box to click.

 

[Trifid]

You guessed the stopping distances then?

I short term memorised them. The rest was common sense.

 

[ttaskmaster]

You guessed the stopping distances then?

I've done theory tests for bike and car, now. Both times I never got asked any quetions about them.

To be fair, I also never learned them, preferring instead to know what the safe distance actually looks like... you know, since I'll never be able to get out the car and actually measure them at 70mph, or anything.

 

[Rroff]

How did you pass your theory without being able to find a copy of the highway code?

I had a copy and other support material/DVDs - my point was at least back when I learnt to drive the presentation of any information on the subject was not good enough to alert me to there being a difference to what I had observed as being the way to do it from travelling in a car with other drivers - which I think is also backed up by the number that still don't have awareness of how to approach that situation.

Quite a few round here. Same for Aylesbury. Same for Scotland, even...
If it's insufficient round your way, perhaps you can approach your MP to get another campaign going?

TBH, I don't really care. There are so many things people don't do properly on the road anyway, you just learn to leave allowances for their stupidity. What *I* find the problem with is the increasing number of people who do it on purpose, with malice or outright intent to **** you over for their own ends. No amount of awareness campaigning is going to make them care, though.


Drivers are supposed to read the Highway Code periodically and stay up to date with road laws. That's what they tell you in driving lessons, nowadays.
From a legal standpoint, you are supposed to know better and the information is freely published for that reason.

If more people were aware and doing it right it would make it harder for those intentionally being awkward about it. I don't consider the odd sign an awareness campaign - something like this needs a proper national awareness campaign.

You seem to be being intentionally awkward about the whole thing and that isn't going to solve anything - I'm trying to suggest a way that maybe could actually have an impact on the situation.

 

[ttaskmaster]

the presentation of any information on the subject was not good enough to alert me to there being a difference to what I had observed as being the way to do it from travelling in a car with other drivers - which I think is also backed up by the number that still don't have awareness of how to approach that situation.

To what lengths must we go to educate people, then?
Every school gets compulsory Highway Code lessons?
Posts on Twitter, Facebook and every other social media platform?
Adverts on TV, radio and in newspapers?
Leaflets through the door?
People coming round to your house to explain everything in 26 different languages and answer any questions you might possibly have, hold debates about the legal way versus the right way versus whatever way they were taught?

Or just a freely available book that is kept up to date, with the caveat that it's the driver's responsibility to know the law and their fault if they break it... kinda like how it is with most other laws, already?

You seem to be being intentionally awkward about the whole thing and that isn't going to solve anything - I'm trying to suggest a way that maybe could actually have an impact on the situation.

Go on, then. Do it. It will not work. People won't listen because they have no reason to, because they don't care, because there's no punishment and because not listening lets them continue to claim they never knew.
They also will not change, because they will react to what they have in front of them, not what they should be doing. This is the same reason people break laws intentionally - Because the opportunity presents itself and no-one is going to stop them.

 

[Rroff]

People won't listen because they have no reason to, because they don't care

You've already decided this and hence the rest of your posting - in my experience the larger number are genuinely unaware and while there will be some degree of reluctance to admit they were in the wrong most will come around to some degree. As I mentioned before when the topic came up at a wedding there were over a dozen people who were genuinely surprised to discover what they'd always just assumed was the right way wasn't in fact right. Nothing will ever be resolved if we ignore the reality that on this aspect of driving especially there is a huge amount of division when it comes to the background people come from with many influenced by a long past era with nothing to particularly cause them to double check their thinking on it unless they encounter threads like this, etc.

An advertising campaign on twitter, facebook and TV, certainly wouldn't do any harm and would almost certainly result in a higher number of people aware of the right approach and hence slowly shift things towards how they should be.

EDIT: As I've said before I only found out by pure chance my thinking on it, based on years of seeing how other people drove, wasn't the right approach - I passed my theory test first time with IIRC 1 incorrect answer, I've subsequently had to do additional tests which include refreshing awareness with the highway code, etc. for potential van driving at previous jobs (though never ended up having to do any driving for those jobs), etc. without anything ever tipping me off that my thinking on it wasn't correct.

 

[ttaskmaster]

You've already decided this and hence the rest of your posting

It's been decided for me, by the numerous other awareness campaigns for things.
If they actually worked, I'd be out of a job!

As I mentioned before when the topic came up at a wedding there were over a dozen people who were genuinely surprised to discover what they'd always just assumed was the right way wasn't in fact right.

Yup - Just as customers are always 'genuinely surprised' when we come knocking to fix their jammed sewer for the 5th time...
Sorry, I cannot believe that.

Nothing will ever be resolved if we ignore the reality that on this aspect of driving especially there is a huge amount of division when it comes to the background people come from with many influenced by a long past era with nothing to particularly cause them to double check their thinking on it unless they encounter threads like this, etc.

I'm not ignoring the reality, though - I'm simply pointing out why the softly-softly approach has not worked so far and will not work here.

An advertising campaign on twitter, facebook and TV, certainly wouldn't do any harm and would almost certainly result in a higher number of people aware of the right approach and hence slowly shift things towards how they should be.

Great - Here's my tax money, go make it happen....

Meanwhile, we really must find a way to spell out every law most clearly to everyone who ever goes near a road, so that they have no excuse for not knowing. Having a freely-publicised law doesn't work, having great big signs and road markings right by the conditions doesn't work, teaching them the law doesn't work... I'm thinking a chip in the head that auto-Googles every law, with pictures for the stubbornly ignorant, as they approach each different type of road layout.

Or just self-driving cars....

 

[Rroff]

You are still making a false equivalency between the background of 1-2 of these highway use issues and many other issues that people are very evidentially far more aware of. I do believe most of those people were genuinely unaware - I've seen the reluctance to believe it and the process of enlightenment first hand when its been brought up or when I've shown people the threads on here about it.

At the end of the day I'm not defending these people just trying to find a way that might actually resolve the issue and your approach to it certainly won't do anything.

EDIT: I'm not under any disillusionment as to people's driving standards and approach in general - many people who should know better can't even manage queues around car parks, etc. with any consideration for what works best never mind on the road proper and so on but I know there are a lot of people like myself who are/were genuinely unaware often as a result of legacy reasons and what is needed is an increase in people who are cognisant of what is going on and what should be done in these situations to hopefully improve the situation for everyone.

EDIT2: Interestingly they've run campaigns in parts of Canada and Holland where it has had a measurable improvement - however:

Ontario, for its part, isn't actively promoting the Zipper Merge at this time, said Bob Nichols of the Ministry of Transportation.

"We have investigated the zipper (late) merge and found that while there may be benefits, it does require driver education campaigns to promote the late merge method," Nichols wrote in a statement. "MTO is continuing to evaluate the effectiveness of the zipper merge and other types of lane reduction methods to determine which concepts merit further research and trials."

 

[ttaskmaster]

You are still making a false equivalency between the background of 1-2 of these highway use issues and many other issues that people are very evidentially far more aware of.

The psychology involved in and the causes behind them are the same, as they are with numerous other issues. It's the root human behaviour that does this - Heck, I even know when I am doing it, so it's not exactly a secret!

I do believe most of those people were genuinely unaware

I don't.
A few of them, yes and out of that lot, you may well change a few of their behaviours.
I do think the majority are aware they should, but don't, because they see other people purposely do it wrong for their own ends. That again holds true for a lot of human behaviour in general.

I've seen the reluctance to believe it and the process of enlightenment first hand when its been brought up or when I've shown people the threads on here about it.

This is not the first thread about it, though and people are still refusing to either believe, or care about it.

At the end of the day I'm not defending these people just trying to find a way that might actually resolve the issue and your approach to it certainly won't do anything.

Your approach has not worked for us so far and will not change enough people... At least with punishment, people WILL want to learn how they avoid that!

what is needed is an increase in people who are cognisant of what is going on and what should be done in these situations to hopefully improve the situation for everyone.

Yes.
Right.
So we punish people who don't follow the rules and word will spread that it's not only wrong, but that we're taking it seriously and there will be repercussions. That not only costs far less and even brings in funds, but also takes care of the uneducated, the willfully ignorant and even makes a start on the persistently asshattilant...

EDIT2: Interestingly they've run campaigns in parts of Canada and Holland where it has had a measurable improvement - however:

And where peoples cultures and mindsets are totally different. We live in a very selfish culture here, by comparison.

 

[Kaeo]

Well this became an off topic waste of time involving the usual suspects as always.