Caporegime
You're very confused about position and role Trusty. They're not the same thing.
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- Thread starter Robbo
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You're very confused about position and role Trusty. They're not the same thing.
Soldato
I don't get it. You said Moyes doesn't know how to play certain players, yet Mourinho is playing Mata in the same way?
Like I said in my 1st post, you can't call his tenure a disaster because he didn't have a year to sort out who he wanted, which players to buy, he had a short summer window, with David Gill leaving as well meant that things were going to be up in the air for a year or two whilst people could find their feet. At the end of the day, ignorance prevailed.
Go look up the team selection thing. I did notice the change in stance as well, successive games now rather than the same selection or back 4.
Soldato
Ok.
Soldato
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There is no change in stance. I can only apologise if i didn't express myself clearly or it was confusing. Moyes didn't name the same team in successive games i.e he made changes from one game to the next throughout his time in charge. Win lose or draw there would be a change to the line up in the next match. I believe that this extended not just to the first XI but actually the back 4 i.e there was a change to the back four named from game to game
He didn't know what to do with players, he was constantly chopping, changing, and altering the line up - to no significant end. I watched the games I saw the cluelessness and the lack of an apparent plan. It was just as prevalent in his last game vs Everton as it was in pre-season.
The point, yet again, is he was given the job as a result of his work at Everton, a job where he was apparently expert in getting the best out of players, working on a relative shoestring and making the most of what he had yet you are saying that it can't be a disaster because a man with those qualities can't be expected to keep the Champions in the top 4? Where were those qualities there? Why did he "need a year to sort out what he wanted" when he had the team at the top of the tree when he arrived. Of course he is going to make changes and put his own stamp on things but its not like a Harry Redknapp-esque level of player movement was required.
David Gill going was an issue, but it was Moyes and Moyes alone who dithered over Thaigo when the deal was done. It was also Moyes who publicly courted Fabregas when the deal was never going to happen and it was Moyes who made pronouncements like "we can afford to sign any player" and "the top players want to play for us".
As for Mata, once again, Moyes spent the money on him and immediately shoe-horned him into a wide position as Ive said. Why sign a player of his type and decide you want him to play somewhere else other than th role that prompted you to pay £38m in the first place? The way Mourinho plays him doesn't leave him isolated out wide and out on the fringes of the game, its different and even if it wasn't it wasn't Mourinho who paid the record fee for him, Mourinho himself was actively requesting a wide player this summer but the deal wasn't done.
Soldato
I can guarantee since I've rewatched games since Moyes departure, specifically CL games & few PL games, what you are saying about Mata is wrong, go rewatch some of the games & you'll see.
Again, how do you expect to put your stamp on a team when you only have a short summer window, transfers is basically a managers biggest asset, they make or break teams, how the hell you expect to overhaul in 2 months is beyond me. What was the average age of Evra, Vidic & Ferdinand when Moyes took charge? And stop saying they were the current champions, it means nothing, especially with such a big change, Fergie was at UTD for over 25 years, continuity was never going to happen the very same year. The difference in handling ego's from Everton to UTD is vast and you are completely underselling it.
Again, how do you expect to put your stamp on a team when you only have a short summer window, transfers is basically a managers biggest asset, they make or break teams, how the hell you expect to overhaul in 2 months is beyond me. What was the average age of Evra, Vidic & Ferdinand when Moyes took charge? And stop saying they were the current champions, it means nothing, especially with such a big change, Fergie was at UTD for over 25 years, continuity was never going to happen the very same year. The difference in handling ego's from Everton to UTD is vast and you are completely underselling it.
Soldato
Big time? He did alright at Sociedad actually, considering Neville found it very difficult at Valencia, I'm not sure you can criticise him that much. Sunderland had been battling relegation for 4 or 5 years and we're in a mess financially, hardly shown up big time. The actual fact is - UTD destroyed Moyes.
Soldato
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HE DIDNT NEED TO OVERHAUL!!!!!!! He was handed a team that in their last four seasons had won the league twice and come second by the thinest of margins twice, the expectation level was to just keep the club ticking over in the top 4 and do things gradually. There was no "overhauling" remit so i didn't "expect" him to do it in 2 months because he didn't need to do it at all. You CANNOT dismiss them being the current champions as meaning nothing, of course it does, dont be so completely ridiculous. Yes players had aged but they didn't bloody age in the two months between winning the league in May and him arriving in July!
No on expected continuity. No one expected a flawless change. No on expected titles immediately. What we didn't expect, accept or tolerate was taking a team that like it or not were easily the best team in the league in May 2013 and in the space of months turn them into a side that couldn't beat the likes of Newcastle, Sunderland, West Brom, Southampton, Cardiff and Stoke. We didn't expect the team to become a side that "aspired" to being like Man City, a side that were second favourite playing Liverpool and a side that we "hope to cause problems" for Newcastle United. In the space of a few months thats what we became and those were the words of the manager who seemed to accept the drop in standards as being par for the course.
Yes the difference in handling ego is massive and thats why he was out of his depth and shouldn't have been given the job in the first place. When for years before fans discussed the requirements of a successor to Fergie there was a clear list of desirable qualities that was almost universal.
Experience of title wins
Experience of big players
Experience of big club management
Experience of European success
Experience of big transfers
That isn't unreasonable for a club the size of United and like it or not Moyes didn't tick any of those boxes at all. Now the above isn't guaranteed success by any means (see LVG) but following Fergie you want to minimise the risks and make the massive changes smooth as possible. Handing the job to someone who had never won away to a top 4 team far less win titles was absolutely not going to do that. Yes, he MIGHT work but there is nothing at all to suggest he would. Perhaps if he could communicate his plans in the media, perhaps if his tactics were good, perhaps if the football was entertaining then things could be forgiven but when you put it all together it was a complete disaster and putting him out of his misery was nothing more than a mercy killing.
Caporegime
Moyes wasn't up to the job in any aspect of management. He didn't think big enough, he didn't command any respect from the players, he didn't play good football, he was tactically inept when it came to managing a side that was better than 90% of their opposition. He could have been there for 10 years and we would have been mid-table for 8 of those.
Soldato
Did RVP not basically win you the title that year? It was hardly the 'incredible squad' you are making out.
Also, Sir Alex didn't have any of that experience you mentioned, he was pretty much unknown, and it took him several years before you saw his team, he nearly got sacked as well, basically Sir Alex would have been sacked had had he been employed in 13/14, that tells you a lot about the current climate.
Caporegime
No, that tells you that Fergie was one in a million and anyone using his example to excuse their own shortcomings shouldn't be in high level football management.
Soldato
of course he was one in a million, but only because he was given the chance to become one in a million, I'm not comparing the two, merely pointing out Fergie's success would never have come to fruition had he become manager of the club in 13/14.
Being blown massively out of proportion I think. Of all the things that get chanted in football...
His penis size or the song?
Caporegime
It's only being discussed because of the colour of his skin, they've had no problems with the Park song or the Vidic song.
Caporegime
Yeah I think Kick it Out decided that Spurs calling themselves yid army was fine for some reason.
Exactly, it's one of those fringe songs that's never actually going to be sung by a full crowd. What they've done is probably the worst thing, raising its profile so more people are aware of it and it'll become a 'funny' or 'cool' thing to sing in the near future...