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The Running Man said:
They only really bought fellaini at the start of the seadon. Mata came too late in january.

Notes really bad run was over November/December ..
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By "Notes" i'm autocorrecting back to "Moyes"? His whole run was pretty bad but it wasn't even just the results, it was the manner of them and the tactics and team selections that did for him. He lost it and has never really found it since then which is quite alarming in many ways. He bought Mata and Fellaini and didn't really have a plan as to what to do with them. It smacked of desperation in both cases (whether you like or rate the players or not) during each window.

The point was if you go back and look at that season we could still have lost all the games we lost to the "big teams" and had we just beaten the teams that we could reasonably have expected us to beat (including a number of teams that were so bad they changed manager during the season) we would have been top 4 easily and in the League Cup final. That alone would have kept him in the job without an actual title challenge to speak of.
 
Example? and regarding the example that you give, how would you of done it differently?
 
Which example? He had no idea how to use either player. Much as I dislike Fellaini Jose knows exactly how to use him, stick him in the box and have him cause chaos. Either it bounces off him into the goal, it bounces off him to another player or the opposition is marking him and not marking other players.
 
I'm asking you to give examples. You said he had no idea how to use players, meaning a lot of the squad, I get the impression that you're talking about more that just Mata & Fell.
Moyes played Fell in the same manner as Jose does. Fell got man of the match v UTD at Goodison in Moyes last season, he was playing the same way. He scored over 10 goals that season for Everton, 1 in 3 I think it was.
How would you play Mata then?
 
Why would I give a crap how Fellaini played for Everton? We're talking about Moyes use of him at United. Moyes just used Mata as a winger, much like Fergie used Kagawa.
 
Why would you care how he used him at Everton? Because it show's that he used him in the same way Jose did. He maybe didn't play him as much in the offensive role at UTD, but it still doesn't mean he had no idea how to use him which you are claiming.
Mata played as right winger did he? hugging the touchline, going past players and getting to the baseline? erm...don't think so. I think you need to find out what a winger is. He was actually the opposite of a winger playing in the RW position, he never stretched the defence, I only ever saw him pop up in the half spaces.
 
That's exactly what it means. I don't give a **** what he did before Utd. The only thing that matter when talking about how he performed at Utd is...how he performed at Utd.

No he played him as a winger, a lot. This was a common complaint about Moyes, I'm starting to think you didn't see much of us that season.
 
Trusty said:
I think you're confused if you really think he didn't know what to do with those players.
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He didn't have a clue how to use them. He had Mata playing wide and essentially he should have been off the centre forward playing in the role Rooney would have been good at before he lost the plot. He was far to restrictive with Mata. Fellaini he didn't even know he wanted at first and when he got him he clearly wasn't sure what role he wanted him fulfil either. An attacking midfielder? A defensive midfielder? Off the front man in the same role that Mata and Rooney may or may not play?

Moyes had no idea. He didn't pick the same team twice and he didn't pick the same back four twice. This wasn't a man who knew how he wanted to play and his first XI, this was a man who got a bad result and thought "better make some changes". If I throw enough darts I might hit a bullseye. It was as bad as that. HE had no idea how to use the squad.

A further example was his tactical ineptitude. If you look at almost every game where we were being beaten at the 70 min he would make two random subs, throw four guys up front and hope something happened. I actually remember a game against Spurs round about New Year where I predicted exactly what he would do and right on cue sure enough he did it! The guys I was watching the game with thought I was some sort of genius, I just said, no, this is what Moyes does. It was an easy way out.

And don't get me started on the 70 pointless crosses against Fulham....
 
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Yeah, unfortunately you can't see it, can you? You honestly think someone who was manager of Everton for over 10 years & holds a UEFA Pro license doesn't know that you can play Mata behind a striker, you truly believe that? it only highlights your stupidity if you think that.

What do you mean he didn't pick the same team twice or the back 4 twice? I find that hard to believe, please show me where you read that.

UTD's away record was one of the best that season if I remember correctly, it was better than a few of the other big clubs, it was just the home record was very poor, I wonder why that was? Poor atmosphere, very similar to the Emirates home atmosphere, teams don't win matches in rubbish atmospheres, it puts them off their stride, they get confused about progressions, you need your 12th man, especially at the top, Old Trafford wasn't that. Not like it is again at the moment
 
Trusty said:
Yeah, unfortunately you can't see it, can you? You honestly think someone who was manager of Everton for over 10 years & holds a UEFA Pro license doesn't know that you can play Mata behind a striker, you truly believe that? it only highlights your stupidity if you think that.

What do you mean he didn't pick the same team twice or the back 4 twice? I find that hard to believe, please show me where you read that.

UTD's away record was one of the best that season if I remember correctly, it was better than a few of the other big clubs, it was just the home record was very poor, I wonder why that was? Poor atmosphere, very similar to the Emirates home atmosphere, teams don't win matches in rubbish atmospheres, it puts them off their stride, they get confused about progressions, you need your 12th man, especially at the top, Old Trafford wasn't that. Not like it is again at the moment
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My stupidity? OK. Im not really bothered what qualifications were on his CV he can be judged by what he did when he was manager of Man Utd, that is all we need to look at.

He didn't pick the same team two games running....That is a clear indication he didn't know what to do with the players. At times when there were no injuries or suspensions he still chopped and changed looking in vain for something that worked. This included telling midfielders not to get beyond the ball and telling CL and multiple title winning defenders to be more like the Everton central defence.

He got the job on the back of 10 years at Everton where upon getting the Man Utd job he was lauded for doing brilliant things on a shoestring at Goodison and getting the most out of the players. Less than half a season later it was said he had been left a dreadful team and couldn't be expected to do any better with it. Contradiction much? This despite that very team winning the league the previous season under Ferguson. He was then quoted as saying after losing to Man City that "they were the standard we must aspire to" despite that same team having won the league the previous season under Ferguson and easily reaching said standard. He was then quoted as saying "Even Sir Alex Ferguson couldn't do any better with this squad" despite the squad winning the league the previous season under Ferguson.

Next up in the list of excuses was the fact that the other top sides all improved. Fair enough, exclude results against the other top sides from the equation and just look at the points dropped to frankly terrible teams, teams threatened with relegation and teams who had sacked their managers that same season, teams that a respectable manager would expect to beat with a squad of players who were the current Champions. As I said previously had he just managed to beat those teams he would have happily kept his job but he was so monumentally out of his depth that he couldn't do that either.
 
Well you should be bothered, because your telling me a coach with a UEFA Pro license doesn't know that Mata can play in that role. Why does Mourinho play Mata in the same position as well?

I've asked you to provide me the evidence of the team not being the same, can you link me to this? or shall I go over the team selections?

Yes, he did well with Preston & Everton with next to no money, if you think the player dynamics are the same at the those clubs compared to UTD, again, you're only highlighting your stupidity. I just told you about UTD's away form being fine, it was the home form that let him down, as people mentioned during those years, Moyes was on a hiding to nothing the moment he walked through that door, he did some things which upon reflection were a bad idea, the coaching staff for example, too much change too quickly, the player hierarchy at UTD couldn't handle it. Most importantly - that Fergie factor went, it was always going to take a while to get some of that back, it's taken 4 years nearly..

I probably shouldn't have to mention David Gill as well, but he was a big factor.
 
Trusty said:
Well you should be bothered, because your telling me a coach with a UEFA Pro license doesn't know that Mata can play in that role. Why does Mourinho play Mata in the same position as well?

I've asked you to provide me the evidence of the team not being the same, can you link me to this? or shall I go over the team selections?

Yes, he did well with Preston & Everton with next to no money, if you think the player dynamics are the same at the those clubs compared to UTD, again, you're only highlighting your stupidity. I just told you about UTD's away form being fine, it was the home form that let him down, as people mentioned during those years, Moyes was on a hiding to nothing the moment he walked through that door, he did some things which upon reflection were a bad idea, the coaching staff for example, too much change too quickly, the player hierarchy at UTD couldn't handle it. Most importantly - that Fergie factor went, it was always going to take a while to get some of that back, it's taken 4 years nearly..

I probably shouldn't have to mention David Gill as well, but he was a big factor.
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You can go over the team selections if you want I don't really mind. Im not your personal Google if you doubt what Im saying.

You are making excuses for him. I am aware of the teams results that season and am aware of different team dynamics too. Again excuses. He was handed the Champions of the country. He was handed a blank cheque. He was handed a fanbase who knew changes were afoot and as such did not expect a title win, just simply to challenge. We also expected a few blips along the way and would happily forgive him for it.

However you expect me to believe that coincidentally a perfect storm of disaster occurred that he was powerless over. His team selections were baffling, his signings or lack of them baffling, his results were poor, his results against big teams were poor, his results against small teams were poor, his media relations were poor, his tactics were inflexible, his playing style was poor, his relationship with the players was poor - by every single possible measure in every single aspect of the job he was noticeably bad but we are expected to believe that in each area it was the fault of something else or someone else and not David Moyes.

By way of an example. I said after his first press conference that we were in big trouble. Straight away he said he was in contact with Ferguson and would ask for advice. This immediately sent out the wrong message and portrayed a man who needed help. The job of succeeding Ferguson needed a big personality, a man to capture the imagination of the players and the fans after the most successful period in the clubs history. It didn't need a man meekly (albeit with the best of intentions) announcing that he would ask for help when required. By all means speak to Ferguson if you need to but don't tell the world, don't portray that image. It was a red flag from the outset and he continued to misjudge the situation at every turn from that moment on.
 
You didn't answer my question about why Mourinho plays Mata in the same position?

PS. your team selection theory is wrong.
 
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However you expect me to believe that coincidentally a perfect storm of disaster occurred that he was powerless over. His team selections were baffling, his signings or lack of them baffling, his results were poor, his results against big teams were poor, his results against small teams were poor, his media relations were poor, his tactics were inflexible, his playing style was poor, his relationship with the players was poor - by every single possible measure in every single aspect of the job he was noticeably bad but we are expected to believe that in each area it was the fault of something else or someone else and not David Moyes.
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Replace the word moyed with van gaal and the one differences was that lvg spent loads more.
 
Trusty said:
You didn't answer my question about why Mourinho plays Mata in the same position?

PS. your team selection theory is wrong.
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I can't speak for Mourinho, he didn't pay £38m for him at a time when we were crying out for players in other positions and we dont play as rigidly in Mourinho's 4-3-3 than we did under Moyes where Mata was trapped out wide, however now of that really detracts from the main points of Moyes failure and I have no idea why people are so keen to find reasons why his time in charge wasn't a complete disaster and even more strangely attempt to blame a man who won the title with the squad for his successors inability to win with the same squad.

You are making me doubt my team selection thing but I have vivid recollections of discussing it on another football forum where it was stated that he didn't pick the same back four in successive games never mind the same eleven, I absolutely stand corrected if that wasn't the case though.

The Running Man said:
Replace the word moyed with van gaal and the one differences was that lvg spent loads more.
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Absolutely, Van Gaal wasted a fortune but if nothing else it demonstrated that the owners were prepared to back the manager despite people suggesting the opposite under both Moyes and Ferguson to the extent that when Ferguson said he was never refused money for a player he was accused of lying.
 
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