Anyone Voting in the Catalan Referendum?

IronWarrior said:
Guardia Civil is a nation wide militarise police force, no links to Catalonia, in-fact the Civil Guard have been the ones hitting the protestors, voters and the local Catalan police force, the Mossos.

Policia Nacional is also nation wide. Mossos is the police force that is unique to Catalonia.
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That's what I meant by state has the first 2(national), but I can see how I worded it badly!

Both the Policia Nacional and Guardia Civil were involved in the violence. But to be fair the Mossos have beaten citizens in similar ways in the (very recent) past. Bad elements in all camps.
Not a fan of the Mossos myself, they have been far from helpful in a couple of interactions I had with them.

Kermit said:
I honestly think that if Madrid agreed to legal referendum despite the fallout from the crack down on voting at the illegal one, the majority would choose to stay as part of Spain as despite the Catalan language, pretty much all cataloians speak Spanish as well and their culture is very much on par with other Spanish regions.

Madrid should make it clear before any vote that should a referendum vote yes to independance then
a) They'll have no more than 1-2 years to become independant.
b) they'd be out of the EU
c) by virtue of b) they'll have to have their own currency and finally but not least
d) Barcelona Football Club will be ineligable to play in La Liga

I think d) in itself would swing a large number of voters to vote No given I can't think how boring & predictable a Calatan Premier league title fight would be :p
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The current Madrid government (and any previous ones) will not allow independence, full stop. The current Catalan government will not accept anything less.

The chances of Catalonia voting for a government that will give up full independence is much higher than the country electing a national government that would give independence to any autonomous region.


rp2000
 
It will be interesting if Rajoy replaces the Mossos chief with someone more in line with his thinking. The Mossos can then have the choice of obeying, even though they might see themselves as Catalan rather than Spanish, or what do they do, fight the Spanish civil guard or resign.
 
it is quite interesting to see the sort of moves they'll make to 'rebel' in a modern democracy, we've had the story earlier about a digital Catalonian govt in exile being proposed, actions like farmers tricking the police then blocking them in on the motorway... now they're trying to trigger a run on the banks:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-...catalan-separatists-urge-supporters-pull-cash

Civil society organizations in Catalonia call for a mass withdrawal of money from bank ATMs on Friday at 8am in order to pressure the Spanish government. Organizers don't especify how much money should be taken out nor what to do with it.

The action targets the five main banks in Catalonia: Caixa Bank, Sabadell, Bankia, BBVA and Santander. Organizers call on clients of Caixa Bank and Sabadell to show their disagreement with the banks' recent decision to move their headquarters out of Catalonia due to the escalating political crisis between governments in Barcelona and Madrid.
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dowie said:
it is quite interesting to see the sort of moves they'll make to 'rebel' in a modern democracy, we've had the story earlier about a digital Catalonian govt in exile being proposed, actions like farmers tricking the police then blocking them in on the motorway... now they're trying to trigger a run on the banks:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-...catalan-separatists-urge-supporters-pull-cash
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Wow! Been too busy today to keep up with the news, but that is not a good strategy as it could hurt everyone. Just checking and it seems there has been no major impact (according to here ), so far today, but some banks have had small queues.

I thought something like this may happen at some point, a few weeks back and took some precautions! Hopefully it has no real impact.


rp2000
 
Hikari Kisugi said:
That'll sort everything out.
Come Monday morning, everyone will be so happy, they'll skip to work under the collar of 'unity'.
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It isn't about keeping everyone happy. It's about upholding the laws of the country. That has been clear from the beginning. The Spanish government has shown no tolerance for anything else and know the consequences of that.

I don't get to declare my own ministate because I am unhappy.
 
Catalans should just go on permanent strike until given a referendum, they could probably bring down Spain maybe even the whole EU.
 
It seems Rajoy is basically forcing Catalonia in to a snap election, which seems kind of pointless. Stalling tactics? To what end?

I guess if the next government is pro-Spain then he has effectively won. But what if there's a larger vote for independence parties than ever before?
 
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satchef1 said:
It seems Rajoy is basically forcing Catalonia in to a snap election, which seems kind of pointless. Stalling tactics? To what end?

I guess if the next government is pro-Spain then he has effectively won. But what if there's a larger vote for independence parties than ever before?
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I suspect they will not allow the current leaders of the independence parties to be involved in the election. The Independence parties have nothing they can promise to their voters now anyway, 1 pro party has already said they would not be involved in any forced elections. Wouldn't be surprised if they had infighting as well. I genuinely think there are more people against and would like to think they will all come out to vote for their respective parties this time. Part of the measures they proposed today included oversight of the main Catalan TV and Radio stations as well. So I think the pro parties will win it, and maybe some semblance of normality can return.


rp2000
 
satchef1 said:
It seems Rajoy is basically forcing Catalonia in to a snap election, which seems kind of pointless. Stalling tactics? To what end?

I guess if the next government is pro-Spain then he has effectively won. But what if there's a larger vote for independence parties than ever before?
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Then nothing. It simply means there is a new government with pro independence parties. They can legally campaign for independence if they want.
 
muon said:
I don't get to declare my own ministate because I am unhappy.
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yeah but declaring your own mini-state is rather different to an autonomous region wanting to exercise what ought to be a basic democratic right of self determination... sure the Spanish constitution prevents it... if we'd had a written constitution in the days of the Empire forbidding parts from leaving then would that be fair or reasonable as an argument against decolonisation?
 
dowie said:
yeah but declaring your own mini-state is rather different to an autonomous region wanting to exercise what ought to be a basic democratic right of self determination... sure the Spanish constitution prevents it... if we'd had a written constitution in the days of the Empire forbidding parts from leaving then would that be fair or reasonable as an argument against decolonisation?
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Catalonia is geographically a part of Spain within its borders. Colonies aren't the correct analogy.

It is more like the Donbass region in Ukraine unilaterally declaring independence illegally.

Every country in the world has laws which ensures parts of the country can't unilaterally declare themselves independent. Be that Scotland in the UK or Confederate states in the US. Anything else would be complete anarchy. There is a reason why Article 155 exists.
 
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muon said:
Catalonia is geographically a part of Spain within its borders. Colonies aren't the correct analogy.

It is more like the Donbass region in Ukraine unilaterally declaring independence illegally.

Every country in the world has laws which ensures parts of the country can't unilaterally declare themselves independent. Be that Scotland in the UK or Confederate states in the US. Anything else would be complete anarchy. There is a reason why Article 155 exists.
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Ireland is geographically part of the British isles and was within our borders too.

We're not just talking about laws preventing unilateral declarations but rather excluding the possibility at all.

What choice do they have if they've been repeatedly denied it? That's the point - also it is the principle here being argued, why does geography make a difference, your point simply related to the law/constitution?

You haven't actually answered the question but I presume given the mention of geography that you'd be ok for such a constitution to be ignored if the territory concerned was geographically seperate but not if it was joined to the rest of the state?
 
mmj_uk said:
Catalans should just go on permanent strike until given a referendum, they could probably bring down Spain maybe even the whole EU.
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Haha, still holding on to that fantasy eh? Well, it's good to have dreams I guess, but you're getting a bit desperate. Since the UK leaving hasn't put the EU in the predicted death spiral, you think a few catalonians going on strike could do it? :p
 
muon said:
It isn't about keeping everyone happy. It's about upholding the laws of the country. That has been clear from the beginning. The Spanish government has shown no tolerance for anything else and know the consequences of that.

I don't get to declare my own ministate because I am unhappy.
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So the countries and borders we have now are "correct" and should be just so for all time.

Any and all secession is wrong, and every state crushing attempted secession is ethically justified.

I do wonder if people would have the same opinion if it was a state trying to secede from Russia. In which case it would probably be "Boo, hiss, evil Putin, let's arm the freedom fighters."
 
FoxEye said:
So the countries and borders we have now are "correct" and should be just so for all time.

Any and all secession is wrong, and every state crushing attempted secession is ethically justified.

I do wonder if people would have the same opinion if it was a state trying to secede from Russia. In which case it would probably be "Boo, hiss, evil Putin, let's arm the freedom fighters."
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"Crushing" any attempt? Last I checked Catalans weren't second class citizens aren't actually enjoy some of the best living conditions in the entire country.

As usual context is key. Any coup d'etat or illegal declaration of independence requires very extraordinary circumstances for someone to sympathise with the breaking of the law. It requires the state to be breaking international law in my mind which Spain has never done to the people of Catalonia. They have not engaged in ethnic cleansing, persecution of culture, religion or treating the citizens any less than an in the rest of Spain.

To even compare it to the historic examples of unilateral declarations of independence where the situation is far far worse is a betrayal of what those states went through and why they resorted to it.
 
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