Speaker upgrade :)

Thanks for the info. From the top then, you've had access to your brother's Rega P3 system to listen to over the past 15 years. QUESTION: What's he running with that TT (cartridge, amp, speakers etc) and how does that sound compared to yours?

QUESTION: Is his room size and gear layout significantly different to yours?

From the picture, it looks like the speakers are pointing at different angles. QUESTIONS: Is that correct, is there room so that they could they be made to point in to the room at the same angle?

QUESTIONS: Do the wall brackets hold the speakers rigidly, or is there some flex, or would they swing easily from side to side if pushed gently?

It looks like one of the speakers is pointing down slightly compared to the other. I take it that means the wall brackets have some adjustability for vertical angle?


Before changing your speakers, it's probably a good idea to see if we can get more from the ones you already have. QUESTION: Is it possible to get the layout so that both speakers are pointing almost straight ahead and at the same angle horizontally?

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lucid said:
Thanks for the info. From the top then, you've had access to your brother's Rega P3 system to listen to over the past 15 years. QUESTION: What's he running with that TT (cartridge, amp, speakers etc) and how does that sound compared to yours?

QUESTION: Is his room size and gear layout significantly different to yours?

He has all his stuff in his living room so plenty of space to set up properly, He as a Rega P3 (Not sure on stylus, Nad 3320, Kef Q10's (About 15 years old), His speakers just sound better and more pleasing to the ears.

From the picture, it looks like the speakers are pointing at different angles. QUESTIONS: Is that correct, is there room so that they could they be made to point in to the room at the same angle?

I think its just the crap picture I have taken. They are pointing at the pretty much the same I think.

QUESTIONS: Do the wall brackets hold the speakers rigidly, or is there some flex, or would they swing easily from side to side if pushed gently?

It looks like one of the speakers is pointing down slightly compared to the other. I take it that means the wall brackets have some adjustability for vertical angle?

The brackets have good angle to move side to side the tilt is at its maximum, so nothing more I can do with that :(.


Before changing your speakers, it's probably a good idea to see if we can get more from the ones you already have. QUESTION: Is it possible to get the layout so that both speakers are pointing almost straight ahead and at the same angle horizontally?

Adjusted as you suggested, but i think they are too high, I plan on decorating this room sometime this year I will be more mindful of the brackets.

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It would be interesting to take your speakers and try them on his system and see what you think then.
 
I think the approach here is a two-pronged attack.

Part 1 - You need a high quality compact monitor speaker to deliver the midrange and treble clarity you're seeking, but it has to be something that will work well close to the back wall. For that we should try to steer clear of rear ported speakers. The speakers have to be good enough that they're a definite step up from the Wharfedale 9.1s. But at the same time money isn't unlimited for most of us so opting for a pair of KEF LS50 at £600-£900 used/new just isn't realistic.

There's also the tonal balance of your system to consider as well. The TT/cartridge combo is lively with plenty of top and also good bass, the amp more sedate. Overall then the balance tilts more towards the bass-end of things, so an overly-bassy speaker would push things too far.

Other considerations are size and weight. These are going to live on wall brackets. The 9.1s weigh 10.5kg a pair making a single speaker a shade over 5kg. The 9.1s are roughly 30cm tall x 28 cm deep and 20cm wide.

On balance then something like the (used) B&W 685 or (used) Mordaunt Shorts MS20i Pearl would be two serious candidates. The Pearls are a bit of a hidden gem if you'll pardon the phrase. The world has kind of fallen out of love with MS since they appeared to go all-in with Richer Sounds, but the Pearls (a special edition with uprated drivers and crossovers from the regular MS20i) were and still are exceptionally good. They're a 90's speaker, but as long as the condition is good then that's really not an issue. Good speakers are good speakers. S/H prices range around the £60-£80 when (or if) they turn up. That's about on par with what good £250-£300 fetch.

The B&Ws have been written about extensively, so you can do a bit of reading on them for yourself.


Part 2 - This is where we add serious (but controlled) bass. There's little point trying to find a wall-mountable compact monitor that does big bass. It just doesn't exist; driver size and speaker placement both work against it as a solution. What you can do very successfully instead is add a powered sub. Pure Hi-Fi folk get a bit sniffy about subs. They're seen as an AV product. But good active subs have been a central part of decent 2 channel systems for a long time.

If you're not sure what we're talking about then a subwoofer is a large bass speaker in a dedicated enclosure (box) with its own built-in amplification. In decent subs, the driver size starts from 8" and goes to 10" 12" and some much larger. We will be looking at 8" and 10" drivers. The sound a sub produces is far less directional than the bass from the main speakers. This means that the sub can live in a corner or other part of the room but the sound still integrates with the mains.

For Hi-Fi use the sub needs to have a High Level Input. This is basically a speaker connection, but one that takes no power from the main amplifier. The sub piggy-backs the speaker connections going to your main speakers.

Blending the sub with the mains takes a little time and patience. However, it rewards with deep tight tuneful bass which supplements what the mains are doing in a very beguiling way. The result is the effect of having big floorstanders without all the headache of room placement. This is because the sub has its own set-up controls for volume, phase and crossover frequency. It's possible to optimise the sound for the position where the sub box lives in a way that's just not possible with typical large floorstander speakers.

The first company I'd look at for subs is BK Electric. The baby of their range is the Gemini II, a 10" compact sub with 150W amp. The next up is the XLS200. This is available in front-firing (standard) and down-firing (DF) versions. It uses the same size driver but coupled with a 275W amp. There's not much difference in overall size, but the XLS200 goes deeper and is a faster-responding sub which makes it far more agile and better suited to music. The next sub up is the XLS400, but it's double the cabinet size and in your room it would be seriously OTT.

Subs haveone major advantage that helps harmonious living: You can turn them off. If it's late at night and you don't need to subterranean bass then simply switch the sub off and use the mains speakers as-is.
 
For Hi-Fi use the sub needs to have a High Level Input. This is basically a speaker connection, but one that takes no power from the main amplifier. The sub piggy-backs the speaker connections going to your main speakers.
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Not necessarily. If your stereo pre-amp or integrated has pre-outs, you can use line level. Doesn't matter if you are using low or high level, as long as the amp and or sub has at least the matching type of input.

The only issue with subs in 2 channel is integrating them, also with the stereo speakers still reproducing full-range (in signal) there is no bass management, so it's quite hard to get them to blend, plus the amp is robbed of power by trying to get the speakers to reproduce the frequncies they cannot produce.

I'm using a sub in the stereo system, but I'm running a Outlaw ICBM-1 between pre and power amps, and have the sub connected to the Outlaw. So both amps only receive >60hz, so saving power plus it's easy to blend in the sub.

If you have bookshelf speakers in a 2 channel system, with a low powered amp, it is definetly worth using bass management and a sub.
 
hornetstinger said:
Not necessarily. If your stereo pre-amp or integrated has pre-outs, you can use line level. Doesn't matter if you are using low or high level, as long as the amp and or sub has at least the matching type of input.

The only issue with subs in 2 channel is integrating them, also with the stereo speakers still reproducing full-range (in signal) there is no bass management, so it's quite hard to get them to blend, plus the amp is robbed of power by trying to get the speakers to reproduce the frequncies they cannot produce.

I'm using a sub in the stereo system, but I'm running a Outlaw ICBM-1 between pre and power amps, and have the sub connected to the Outlaw. So both amps only receive >60hz, so saving power plus it's easy to blend in the sub.

If you have bookshelf speakers in a 2 channel system, with a low powered amp, it is definetly worth using bass management and a sub.
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While technically true about the sub out or pre-out connection, if you spend any time with the guys from REL or BK you'll find that their recommendation is the High Level input. They're adamant it sounds better.

From @jetpaczx's point of view, with the PM6006 amp, he hasn't got a sub out or pre-outs according to the Marantz web site.


With respect to the amp power:

1) The amp only sees a current drawn when there's a load, and then the current drawn is proportional to that load. The load is made up of all the combined impedances for all the frequencies that the speaker can reproduce. If there's no speaker connected to the output then turning the volume up doesn't change the power consumption of the amp, or not significantly aside from the internal losses at least.

Where the speaker is incapable of reproducing the lower end of the audio spectrum then there's no current drawn for those frequencies. e.g. If you connected a tweeter only directly to the amp and fed it 20Hz to 20kHz it would draw just the current required for its audio passband. The measured power consumption would be lower than driving a full range speaker.

2) When there's an active sub connected at High Level (the speaker terminals for non-techy readers), the amp isn't robbed of power at all to drive it. It is generating virtually the same power as driving the speakers that have limited bottom-end extension. It this case with the Diamond 9.1's its a -3dB roll-off at 50Hz I think. The sub presents a high impedance load to the amp - something in the region of 100,000 Ohms (100K).

Marantz claims 45W in to 8 Ohms, and if we presume for a moment that that's accurate, then from the power equations we can work out the voltage (V) at full power (P). Power is V^2 divided by R, and so rearranging we get V^2 = PxR, so V^2 = 360, and so V is square root of 360 which is 19 volts rounded up. We know that amplifiers are Voltage raising devices. It's the speaker that draws the current. This means that the voltage is consistent enough for us to treat it as the same whether there's no load, 4 Ohms, 8 Ohms or something much larger.


Now lets see what Power is drawn when 19V meets 100,000 Ohms.

Our equation is P = V^2 divided by R

V^2 is 360. R is 100,000 Ohms. So 360/100000 = P which gives us 0.0036 of a Watt.

That's a shade over one three-thousandth of a Watt. Hardly what you'd call a massive power drain. :D
 
jetpaczx said:
Thank you that gives me so much to think about.

To throw another pair into the mix what do you think of the Mission 751's? I have always wanted a pair back in the days.
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It's hard to keep track of all the Mission models. There just seem to be so many.

751's can be a bit hit or miss depending on the tweeter and how you get on with either version. I'm not sure if it was the mesh dome or silk dome tweeter that came first, but apparently the updated tweeter kind of killed the presentation. Thinking about it, it was possibly the silk dome tweeter that was the update. If we're talking about the Gen 1 versions, and they're okay close against a back wall then they're a worthy consideration.
 
lucid said:
It's hard to keep track of all the Mission models. There just seem to be so many.

751's can be a bit hit or miss depending on the tweeter and how you get on with either version. I'm not sure if it was the mesh dome or silk dome tweeter that came first, but apparently the updated tweeter kind of killed the presentation. Thinking about it, it was possibly the silk dome tweeter that was the update. If we're talking about the Gen 1 versions, and they're okay close against a back wall then they're a worthy consideration.
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Not the Freedom version :).
 
There's a pair of original mesh dome 751's just gone up on Ebay. Might not be suitable for you as they include stands and they're collection only from Bolton, but should be interesting to watch.
 
Having recently bought a pair of Q Acoustics 3010 for £60, which sound much larger and more expensive than their size and price, I'd be tempted to try their more expensive offerings. The Concept 20 are very well reviewed and are £295 new. Might be worth a look.
 
To go along with some of what Lucid has said earlier, I had moved from a pair of Wharfedale (7.1's) to a pair of B&W 685's as my front speakers in an AV setup. They are a tremendous speaker.

So much so, I bought a second set. And 2 sets of the smaller 686's. And so I now have 2 5.1 set-ups. I also matched them with the HTM61 & HTM62 in the setups, alongside a cheap B&W AS2 sub, and an old Whartfedale sub from an old 5.1 system (SW150 I think). Overall I am very pleased with the overall sound. Although I am thinking of upgrading one of the subs (probably the Wharfedale one). Mostly because I could now use a sub for my new PC system, which will now be a pair of B&W M1's driven by a Yamaha AS301 amp (that already has a pre-out for the sub, and an optical in for the PC). And if I'm completely honest, the sub would make a decent difference in this set-up.

The 685's obviously made an impression with me, as almost all the speakers I have bought since have been from B&W. I just dig their sound.
 
"if you spend any time with the guys from REL or BK you'll find that their recommendation is the High Level input. They're adamant it sounds better."

That is codswallop. If you can tell the differenc, and pick out high level as "better sounding" 100% of the time, 100 times, between high and low level on a subwoofer, and levels and crossover is exactly the same, I'll eat my hat.

1) In a AV system, the 5.0 channels are filtered, so they are only amplfying (typically) >80hz so they are not used to amplify the much more demanding low frequencies, so power is free up, amp runs cooler, distortion on the amp goes down. Bass is re-directed to a subwoofer. In a two channel system, or running it in large mode, the amp is amplfying the full audio spectrum, even if you have bookshelf. As frequency drops, so does impedence. My speakers are 2.2 ohm at 60hz.

If you have floorstanders you probably want to run them full range for CD Music, however their may be reasons why you don't want to- perhaps a bad room node, you prefer a sub handling 40/60hz bass, lack of power etc.

the amp isn't robbed of power at all to drive it. It is generating virtually the same power as driving the speakers that have limited bottom-end extension.
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I'm aware of that. Basically it just drops the voltage from high level to low level, and used virtually nil power.
 
jetpaczx said:
So to sum up

B&W 685
Mordaunt Shorts MS20i Pearl
Monitor Audio Bronze 2
Mission 751 (Not Freedom)
Q Acoustics 3010

:)
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I'd drop the MA Bronze 2 - too bassy when close to the wall as it will be with your install. They need more space than you can give them. I said this in a much earlier post. DON'T GET THE BRONZE 2's

Hornetstinger's right though. There are loads of really good speakers out there. Not all of the brands will have something right for your particular installation (and that really is key), and of course that doesn't make those brands any less well respected.

So, just to be crystal clear then, this isn't about simply throwing some money at this or that model of speaker just because it has been well reviewed. That approach won't work. You have to narrow down the choices to speakers that will work well - not be boomy and bloated sounding - when close to a rear wall, and you need something that leans more towards a bass-lite temperament anyway because your amp already has a slight bass-heavy tilt to its sound. You can't hear that at the moment because the 9.1s are really very bass-lite.
 
2 standmount speakers I would recommend, without spending massive amounts, are :

B&W 685 S2
Dynaudio Emit M20

Best subwoofer :

BK XLS200
 
hornetstinger said:
"if you spend any time with the guys from REL or BK you'll find that their recommendation is the High Level input. They're adamant it sounds better."

That is codswallop. If you can tell the differenc, and pick out high level as "better sounding" 100% of the time, 100 times, between high and low level on a subwoofer, and levels and crossover is exactly the same, I'll eat my hat.
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Look, don't have a go at me. It's their view. They're not alone either. MJ Acoustics is another. They (and BK) specifically fit dual-mode sub plates that work on coax for AV and High Level for music.


hornetstinger said:
1) In a AV system, the 5.0 channels are filtered, so they are only amplfying (typically) >80hz so they are not used to amplify the much more demanding low frequencies, so power is free up, amp runs cooler, distortion on the amp goes down. Bass is re-directed to a subwoofer.

In a two channel system, or running it in large mode, the amp is amplfying the full audio spectrum, even if you have bookshelf. As frequency drops, so does impedence. My speakers are 2.2 ohm at 60hz.

If you have floorstanders you probably want to run them full range for CD Music, however their may be reasons why you don't want to- perhaps a bad room node, you prefer a sub handling 40/60hz bass, lack of power etc.
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BIB #1: But we're not talking about AV. What happens in an AV system isn't relevant to @jetpaczx's requirements. He's already said he's a noobie at this, so please don't throw in unrelated stuff.

BIB #2: I'm not arguing that the amplifier isn't producing the entire spectrum - subject to the music it's playing containing all those frequencies, of course. What I'm saying is that you can't just take the impedance at one specific frequency and base all your arguments on that. Music doesn't work that way and neither do speakers.
 
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