Electric Car

The latest high technology electric car has just launched at CES by a company called Byton.

It's another Chinese funded start up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ3l5V-7a3g

Having watched that I just can't see the correlation between what they have show and starting at $45k. They gave loads of details about all the smart tech inside even to the point of having a wearable wristband which can measure your heart rate. But no details of the actual car, no range figures, no power numbers etc. What was shown on stage was clearly not $45k, more like $145k.

Going into production in 2019 it seems in a factory that has yet to be built.

Call me cynical but this sounds rather familiar (Faraday Future).
 
They mention a 20 minute charge will get you 150 miles of range, and then specify that a 30 minute charge is enough to charge to 80%. So something around 250 miles of range.

To me, it seems almost certain they are being in some way dishonest with this presentation. There's no way they're producing a car with all of the features they have talked about, and 250 mile range, for $45k. I could believe that there's a base car coming out for $45k, with much of what was discussed being optional extras.

Then again, it's a Chinese-funded smart device. Maybe making a profit is less important than farming data?
 
Co funded by the ex head of the i8 program at BMW so presumably they should have an idea of how to build an electric car.

Also it appears a 0-60 of 5 seconds, so powerful enough, especially as it’s more of an SUV than the Model 3 so a more practical design, especially for what they look to be aiming for - a vehicle designed primarily for autonomous driving.

Cart before the horse there? Possibly, depending on how autonomous vehicle legislation goes over the next couple of years.

It also looks rather nice, better than the M3 IMO, although it remains to be seen if the tablet in steering wheel design is a good idea - airbag anyone?

satchef1 said:
They mention a 20 minute charge will get you 150 miles of range, and then specify that a 30 minute charge is enough to charge to 80%. So something around 250 miles of range.

To me, it seems almost certain they are being in some way dishonest with this presentation. There's no way they're producing a car with all of the features they have talked about, and 250 mile range, for $45k. I could believe that there's a base car coming out for $45k, with much of what was discussed being optional extras.

Then again, it's a Chinese-funded smart device. Maybe making a profit is less important than farming data?
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So the same as Tesla then? $35k, unless you want extended range, autopilot, leather seats and a colour that isn’t black? Then that’ll cost you another $20k. :p
 
I've never really understood the grumbles about the M3 specs. What you get for $35k is, in EV terms, pretty great. The BMW i3 starts at $44,450.
 
satchef1 said:
I've never really understood the grumbles about the M3 specs. What you get for $35k is, in EV terms, pretty great. The BMW i3 starts at $44,450.
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The issue is when it was initially announced a year or so ago it seemed ok, but now with the new Leaf ($30k) and all the other competition also available for similar or less money it’s not really the unique car it was platformed as to begin with.

The point I was making was that most car manufacturers state the base price, but show the vehicle with lots of added extras.

Besides anyone buying a Tesla without the AP is a fool (another $5k on the price). But perhaps Tesla realised that which is why they allow you to buy it later, worth it if only for resale values in a couple of years!

Edit: The Model 3 was sold as the first “affordable” EV with decent range. Unfortunately it got beaten to the line by the Bolt, which has so far sold way more than Tesla has shipped Model 3’s. Realistically that trend will probably continue (with different vehicles) when Tesla eventually start shipping internationally in 2019. Not to say it’s a bad vehicle, just production delays have severely damaged the “legacy” of the base model.
 
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Simon said:
0-60 is good. Bit underwhelmed by the 0-100 and 1/4mile
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Personally I rarely go over 80mph now anyway and in an electric car doing 80mph over 70mph really starts to eat in to the range.

Remember that by the time the UK gets it there will definitely be a dual motor model which are always a little bit quicker, and it will possibly have a more powerful battery (though it's unlikely to be 100kw like the 100D model S)
 
Amp34 said:
The issue is when it was initially announced a year or so ago it seemed ok, but now with the new Leaf ($30k) and all the other competition also available for similar or less money it’s not really the unique car it was platformed as to begin with.

The point I was making was that most car manufacturers state the base price, but show the vehicle with lots of added extras.

Besides anyone buying a Tesla without the AP is a fool (another $5k on the price). But perhaps Tesla realised that which is why they allow you to buy it later, worth it if only for resale values in a couple of years!

Edit: The Model 3 was sold as the first “affordable” EV with decent range. Unfortunately it got beaten to the line by the Bolt, which has so far sold way more than Tesla has shipped Model 3’s. Realistically that trend will probably continue (with different vehicles) when Tesla eventually start shipping internationally in 2019. Not to say it’s a bad vehicle, just production delays have severely damaged the “legacy” of the base model.
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Yeah, Tesla are late.

But they've been lucky. Everyone (other than Nissan) is hampered by battery supply issues that are unlikely to be resolved in 2018. Manufacturers are having to turn down new orders for EVs and PHEVs because the lead times are getting silly. If Tesla can fix its own issues this year, it will be alright. It's worth noting that the Renault Zoe and the eGolf have been doing over 2000 units a month in Europe for some time now, so the Bolt's success isn't unique. Demand is growing across the board. But until LGChem get their new factories online and up to speed, there's a firm ceiling on how many electric cars can be sold.

I don't really know a lot about the Bolt, other than it's the only non-Tesla EV with decent range. But I know the Leaf reasonably well. It pretty much proves the point that the Tesla is pretty decent for the money. The Leaf S is $30k. It uses a resistive heater instead of a heat pump (so winter range in the 80-100 mile bracket). It lacks SatNav, Cruise Control, parking sensors. 6.6kW onboard charging and a public charging lead are a $1,600 optional extra. The hardware for ProPilot is absent.

The standard Model 3 has a 220 mile range, which should be more stable as the battery has good thermal management (as opposed to no thermal management in the Leaf) and the car uses an efficient heatpump system for heating/cooling. It's faster, and it includes everything that a modern car needs. For $5k more. Autopilot can be added at a later date.

At MSRP, the only Leaf trim that really makes any sense versus the standard Model S is the SL. You're getting stuff with that trim that will cost a lot more from Tesla. Leather seats, 360° camera (which Tesla don't do), Bose soundsystem, ProPilot. $1,200 more than the standard Model 3 (or $3,800 less than one with Autopilot). You're gaining some toys. Losing some range and performance.

I'd like one of the new Leaf, but Nissan are having a chuckle with the current pricing. It'll need slashing like the outgoing model.
 
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Simon said:
0-60 is good. Bit underwhelmed by the 0-100 and 1/4mile
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Same with most of the EV, except the super expensive high end stuff. Quick off the line but then nothing, where as a petrol performance car will keep accelerating hard right up to the limit.
 
That bit from 50mph up to 70mph when joining the motorway can be interesting. It's a bit like driving a heavy, underpowered petrol car with a 0-60 that's north of 13s.

It's the same in both the Leaf and the Zoe. The new Leaf is quicker, but I doubt that's represented by any huge improvement in performance at high speeds. More likely it has just got even quicker at 0-40mph (which is pretty easy for an EV to be fair; no transmission).
 
VincentHanna said:
Yes, but when can you ever use that on a Road? Is everyone here stonking about at 120mph?

As long as the 0-60 and mid-range powerbands are good, that's all I care about.
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When do you use 0-60? Driving a i3 I found it funny up to 30, but the 50-70 was pretty poor.
 
Simon said:
When do you use 0-60? Driving a i3 I found it funny up to 30, but the 50-70 was pretty poor.
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Penis extension Traffic light drag races of course! :D

There's no question that the i3, LEAF (1st gen) and ZOE etc are interesting, but pretty poor in terms of range and performance.

I'm really excited by what Jaguar, BMW etc are going to bring out in answer to the Model 3. Other than the lack of instrument cluster (I think they should have included a HUD) and the fact it's a saloon rather than a Hatchback, the Model 3 seems really cool/unique to me.
 
satchef1 said:
Yeah, Tesla are late.

But they've been lucky. Everyone (other than Nissan) is hampered by battery supply issues that are unlikely to be resolved in 2018. Manufacturers are having to turn down new orders for EVs and PHEVs because the lead times are getting silly. If Tesla can fix its own issues this year, it will be alright. It's worth noting that the Renault Zoe and the eGolf have been doing over 2000 units a month in Europe for some time now, so the Bolt's success isn't unique. Demand is growing across the board. But until LGChem get their new factories online and up to speed, there's a firm ceiling on how many electric cars can be sold.

I don't really know a lot about the Bolt, other than it's the only non-Tesla EV with decent range. But I know the Leaf reasonably well. It pretty much proves the point that the Tesla is pretty decent for the money. The Leaf S is $30k. It uses a resistive heater instead of a heat pump (so winter range in the 80-100 mile bracket). It lacks SatNav, Cruise Control, parking sensors. 6.6kW onboard charging and a public charging lead are a $1,600 optional extra. The hardware for ProPilot is absent.

The standard Model 3 has a 220 mile range, which should be more stable as the battery has good thermal management (as opposed to no thermal management in the Leaf) and the car uses an efficient heatpump system for heating/cooling. It's faster, and it includes everything that a modern car needs. For $5k more. Autopilot can be added at a later date.

At MSRP, the only Leaf trim that really makes any sense versus the standard Model S is the SL. You're getting stuff with that trim that will cost a lot more from Tesla. Leather seats, 360° camera (which Tesla don't do), Bose soundsystem, ProPilot. $1,200 more than the standard Model 3 (or $3,800 less than one with Autopilot). You're gaining some toys. Losing some range and performance.

I'd like one of the new Leaf, but Nissan are having a chuckle with the current pricing. It'll need slashing like the outgoing model.
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Yeah, it will be interesting to see how the battery situation pans out in the next year or so, it may be Tesla’s “saviour”. If it does map out well then Tesla May lose a lot of those preorders it’s racked up, especially if it can’t ramp up its manufacturing capacity fast enough.

The Bolt is currently sold in Canada, but it’s not far off hens teeth due to the battery issue as you mention. I think most dealers have quotas they order in the low single figures.

As for the Leaf, is that the 2017 you’re talking about? The 2018 has a heat pump and for $35 you can get the SV with nav and the tech package that includes pro Pilot. The equivelant package to the lead you mentioned would be around $45k for the M3, so around $5-10k more for “similar“ features, hense I don’t think Nissan’s price is really out there.

But I agree. The Model 3 isn’t bad value, but it’s not quite the vehicle for the price it was initially quoted at. $35-40k seems to be the price point most manufacturers are aiming for for a “good” decent ranged product. Hopefully that will drop in the next 5 years or so to closer to $25-30k to make it really comparable to equivelant ICE vehicles.
 
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