Electric Car
- Thread starter Psycho Sonny
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The mediocre ones won't even reach 60 before the power drops off. Yet will still cost as much as a very nice ICE car
But will save you more than the difference in fuel over a reasonable ownership of the vehicle.
I’d also question the stat, are we comparing a Zoe to a 1.0 fiesta or a more powerful premium vehicle that dies more fuel?
Penis extension Traffic light drag races of course!
There's no question that the i3, LEAF (1st gen) and ZOE etc are interesting, but pretty poor in terms of range and performance.
I'm really excited by what Jaguar, BMW etc are going to bring out in answer to the Model 3. Other than the lack of instrument cluster (I think they should have included a HUD) and the fact it's a saloon rather than a Hatchback, the Model 3 seems really cool/unique to me.
It’s going to be quite a wait tbh. Most aren’t really bothering with saloons at the moment, they’re aiming more at the small SUV market as they have better sales figures. That or the hatchback market. Saloons just don’t sell well compared to the other two markets.
The I Pace from Jag looks nice, but rather expensive. I’m waiting for the XC40 electric announcement as that could be very nice indeed. Depends on the price.
The hot hatch market is a very small, specific market though. In time sure there will be a decent EV hot hatch, but that’s a ways away realistically. SUVs, family hatches and performance saloons are going to be where manufacturers concentratefor the next few years. That’s where the sales figures and money is.
Yes but also look at the depreciation on a Zoe. In 3 years it will be worth half as much as something like a Fiesta ST, despite costing similar when new. That would wipe out any savings on fuel for me. That's before you add stuff like "battery hire", which costs as much as petrol per month.
I believe this was discussed on the last page. Batter hire was one specific sales model for one specific vehicle. It’s not how most EVs are sold.
And realistically is someone looking at buying a Zoe also looking at buying a fiesta ST?!
Lets not forget the Leaf 2018 has 70 miles less range than the Model 3.
Its EPA rating is only 150 miles vs the 3's 220. Then there is the 50kw vs 100kw DC fast charging. That's a huge difference when it comes to those journeys outside the range of the vehicle. They are also different classes of vehicles, the Model 3 goes after the 3 Series and C class, the Leaf well.... doesn't. Those three things easily make up their $5k difference in price and make the leaf look a bit over priced if anything.
The average Leaf battery pack isn't going to last as long as a Model 3 either. The Leaf's lower capacity means it will be cycled more for the same number of miles and it doesn't have any cooling. The model 3 suffers with expensive options which quickly bump up the price.
Also you can't really compare the bolt sales to the Model 3, the Bolt has been shipping to actual customers since December 2016. The Model 3 only started landing in people hands that don't work for Musk in December 2017.
I wouldn't ever expect Tesla to ship as many cars as someone like Ford that competes in the mid-low end of the market. Tesla will certainly carve out their niche and establish themselves next to BMW, JAG, Merc etc. but I don't think they will ever overtake BM or Merc in terms of sales especially in Europe.
Its EPA rating is only 150 miles vs the 3's 220. Then there is the 50kw vs 100kw DC fast charging. That's a huge difference when it comes to those journeys outside the range of the vehicle. They are also different classes of vehicles, the Model 3 goes after the 3 Series and C class, the Leaf well.... doesn't. Those three things easily make up their $5k difference in price and make the leaf look a bit over priced if anything.
The average Leaf battery pack isn't going to last as long as a Model 3 either. The Leaf's lower capacity means it will be cycled more for the same number of miles and it doesn't have any cooling. The model 3 suffers with expensive options which quickly bump up the price.
Also you can't really compare the bolt sales to the Model 3, the Bolt has been shipping to actual customers since December 2016. The Model 3 only started landing in people hands that don't work for Musk in December 2017.
I wouldn't ever expect Tesla to ship as many cars as someone like Ford that competes in the mid-low end of the market. Tesla will certainly carve out their niche and establish themselves next to BMW, JAG, Merc etc. but I don't think they will ever overtake BM or Merc in terms of sales especially in Europe.
All of which is irrelevant as the conversation was about it being the first affordable mass market EV. The 3 isn’t really meant to be a competitor to a BMW or Merc, that’s what the S is for.
The Bolt beat it to the punch by a year.
The Leaf is probably going to do the same to it in Europe.
Realistically the price of a longer range vehicle is going to be dictated by the battery and motors for the next few years, hence the similar prices.
Edit: It’ll be interesting to see the ales figures at the end of 2018.
Will Tesla be able to ramp up production of the 3 enough to outsell the Bolt or the Leaf, will Chevy and Nissan be able to get hold of enough batteries to ramp up production enough to outsell the Model 3?
How will the wildcards like Kia do with their new vehicles next year. We know little about the prices and ranges of the vehicles coming out next year, of which there are supposed to be quite a few. Will they be able to get enough batteries to not have to restrict sales?
The Bolt beat it to the punch by a year.
The Leaf is probably going to do the same to it in Europe.
Realistically the price of a longer range vehicle is going to be dictated by the battery and motors for the next few years, hence the similar prices.
Edit: It’ll be interesting to see the ales figures at the end of 2018.
Will Tesla be able to ramp up production of the 3 enough to outsell the Bolt or the Leaf, will Chevy and Nissan be able to get hold of enough batteries to ramp up production enough to outsell the Model 3?
How will the wildcards like Kia do with their new vehicles next year. We know little about the prices and ranges of the vehicles coming out next year, of which there are supposed to be quite a few. Will they be able to get enough batteries to not have to restrict sales?
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That makes no sense, the Leaf is not in the same league as a Model 3, neither is the bolt. None of the EV's on the market right now actually compete with each other. They all sit in different classes and price points. The first bit of direct competition we will see is with the iPace and Model X.
The Model 3 isn't 'mass market' either, it is not a 'cheap' car nor does it pretend to be. Its an entry level premium car and is placed in exactly the same space as a 3 Series and C class. The people that drive those cars are the people Tesla are targeting with the Model 3 not people that have Fiesta's and Clio's.
The Leaf sits in the same space as a Focus, Megane etc.
The Bolt and Zoe fit firmly in the same market as the Fiesta, Clio etc. but neither compete in the same markets. Good luck buying a Bolt in Europe these days. Chevy also take a loss on every single unit sold even when starting at $37.5k. Unlike Nissan and Tesla who all make a profit on every car sold, I couldn't comment on Renault.
Completely disagree. A lot of people in the first wave are looking for an affordable EV with decent mileage. They are not the same vehicle no, but at the same time they are all targeting a similar clientele at the moment.
The Model 3 is very much aimed at the mass market, in fact that’s precisely Tesla’s aim for the vehicle. They have been very vocal on this since it’s announcement. While it overlaps with Merc and BMWs to some extent it’s not meant to be a direct competitor. The base model especially is not at the same level, even compared to the base 320i which is ostensibly the same price ($35k). The Model 3 sale price with incentives however is closer to $27k, and has cloth seats as standard as an example.
As the market matures the lines you have drawn will certainly become clearer, but at the moment they are extremely blurred. Give it a couple of years and you’ll be correct, but not at the moment. The cost of the EV tech needs to reduce before that happens and in that time it’s likely Tesla will reduce the price or release a cheaper Model to target an even bigger market share.
Edit: and to add to the cost factor, once fuel consumption comes into the equation over a 3-5 year term you’re looking at the equivalent of low-mid $20k for the US buyer for the base model (as it stands at the moment). That’s very much in Honda/“Import” small/mid size saloon territory.
Edit 2: and BMWs most “direct” competitor to the M3 is the 330e, which starts at $45k, $10k more than the base Model 3. Alternatively there’s the fully electric i3, which also starts at $45k.
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Soldato
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The mediocre ones won't even reach 60 before the power drops off. Yet will still cost as much as a very nice ICE car
Seriously what are you on about? All cars drop off.
Sure, but not once you top 40mph.
The 2018 model. I was actually wrong about the heat pump. It's an optional extra on both the S and the SV, part of the $900 "All Weather Package".
The closest comparison between the two cars comes from the Leaf SV with the Technology Package ($2,200) and the All Weather Package ($900) for a total of $35,590, compared to the Model 3 Standard with Autopilot at $40,000. The trim levels are pretty similar, with the Leaf benefitting from Android Auto/Apple CarPlay, while the extra $4,410 for the Tesla buys almost 50% more range, better performance, faster charging, dual-zone climate control, and a self-driving system that's capable of more than just simple motorway driving.
The ST does particularly well on depreciation. The Zoe is bad, though often over-stated.
A two year old i-Dynamique NAV (i.e. no battery rental) is worth about £10k. You can buy a new one for about £16.5k. That's heavier depreciation than an ST. But it's not an unusual amount for a small hatchback. Running cost is about £120 cheaper per 1000 miles.
Arguably you should add another $1000 to the 3 if you want it in any other colour than black.
Several of the differences you listed may well disappear with the 2019 Leaf: Faster charging, larger motors and the larger battery pack. Presumably it needs to be at max $4-5k more than the 2018 to be competitive.
Which one is best for an individuals specific needs is going to be up to the individual their usage and their wants. The Model 3 is undoubtedly the "better" vehicle, but $5k is a fair amount of change if you don't NEED that extra range, especially if you prefer a hatch to a saloon (Hatches sell FAR more than saloons in the UK and much of the world). There's also the wait time. You'll be likely to be able to get a new Leaf a year or more before the Model 3.
Interestingly you can order an a new base model Leaf now (with £4500 incentive included) for just £2k more than the equivalent Golf (5 door SE). If you're not worried about range then that's a bargain when you consider tax and fuel costs which will basically make it cheaper if you own it for more than a 3-4 years.
Most EVs now have a heat pump. A 20°C cabin will cost 4-8 miles of range in winter, depending on how cold it is outside and whether or not pre-heat is being used. If you're doing lots of small journeys the impact will be higher.
Some models of Leaf have a resistive heater. Any Leaf from 2011/2012 plus some 2013 cars, and any Leaf with Visia or Visia+ trim. The Mitsubishi I-MIEV/Peugeot Ion/Citroen C-Zero use the same type of heater too. These cars have pretty terrible winter range. If you want to go beyond maybe 40 miles, it's scarf and gloves time.
That's largely the reason why the old/low spec Leafs are so cheap relative to Acenta/Tekna spec cars. I could have saved £1500 buying a similar Visia and fitting a decent double-din stereo. But the car would be a pain in the ass for four months of the year.
Some models of Leaf have a resistive heater. Any Leaf from 2011/2012 plus some 2013 cars, and any Leaf with Visia or Visia+ trim. The Mitsubishi I-MIEV/Peugeot Ion/Citroen C-Zero use the same type of heater too. These cars have pretty terrible winter range. If you want to go beyond maybe 40 miles, it's scarf and gloves time.
That's largely the reason why the old/low spec Leafs are so cheap relative to Acenta/Tekna spec cars. I could have saved £1500 buying a similar Visia and fitting a decent double-din stereo. But the car would be a pain in the ass for four months of the year.
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It is an issue and the AC is the worst for draining the battery I think. When it starts to get low you have to switch them all off, so you either roast or freeze (and steam up badly like a good ol' classic car), not nice.
Soldato
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Just precondition before unplugging makes a huge benefit to Range let alone comfort