Today's mass shooting in the US

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Johno please? said:
Well one person has significant training the other doesn't, Id put my money on the cop.

Cops like this exist you know....
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I don't think that link helps prove (what you presumably believe it might) anyway...

one it has no bearing on the common sense (or distinct lack thereof) of a person armed with a pistol announcing themselves in advance! to a person there know is most likely armed with a semi automatic rifle... this was a routine traffic stop

It also shows how rubbish pistols are at actually effectively stopping a suspect in quick order.... the suspect doesn't even try to shoot the officer (he could not as the gun was unloaded) and actually tried to hit the officer with the butt of the weapon. The officer, at extreme close range, manages to shoot the suspect twice (he did very well to react so quickly by drawing so fast) and the suspect is able to continue running away from the officer to a quite considerable distance before he stops.

I'm have to disagree with you on the (regular) cop with a hand gun vs suspect with a rifle scenario.... (assuming the rifle actually has bullets) especially if the encounter doesn't start at extreme close range. If the rifle suspect knows the cop is coming (say because he has be stupid enough to announce his presence in advance) the cop is dead in almost all the different ways that scenario plays out and often without landing a single effective shot on his or her target
 
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Caracus2k said:
I'm have to disagree with you on the (regular) cop with a hand gun vs suspect with a rifle scenario.... (assuming the rifle actually has bullets) especially if the encounter doesn't start at extreme close range. If the rifle suspect knows the cop is coming (say because he has be stupid enough to announce his presence in advance) the cop is dead in almost all the different ways that scenario plays out and often without landing a single effective shot on his or her target
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That makes no sense, if a police officer is in a position to shout at a suspect to put down their weapon then they don't know the cop is coming (unless they've got some crystal ball/telepathic abilities). If the suspect is still shooting people then the cop is more likely to simply shoot them.
 
dowie said:
That makes no sense, if a police officer is in a position to shout at a suspect to put down their weapon then they don't know the cop is coming (unless they've got some crystal ball/telepathic abilities). If the suspect is still shooting people then the cop is more likely to simply shoot them.
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You were the one who suggested it would be a good idea for the cop (in this scenario likely only armed with a pistol) to enter the building announcing his presence to a suspect!

dowie said:
In fact even shouting at him, ordering him to put the weapon down, making him aware of the presence of a police officer could be useful and allow others to escape.
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Which has been pointed out to you to be a ludicrous suggestion......... If it were me with the pistol and you with the rifle and I made the decision to enter a building to try and stop you I would definitely not be announcing my presence to you in advance.... if you were very lucky and I caught you say mid reload or facing in completely the opposite direction to me, and unaware of my presence, I might consider a verbal challenge... most likely followed by a quick hail of bullets from my gun heading in your direction as you failed to react quickly enough (and in the correct manner) to my challenge

But what's worse is that you think you can find cover from a rifle wielding suspect in a typical school environment... complete with very likely drywall walls and hollow wooden doors!

dowie said:
I think it is more likely he could stay behind cover and at least restrict the moment of the shooter.
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The only, reliable, cover in such a scenario is cover from view (rather then cover from fire because you are behind lets say a giant mass of concrete) and cover from view largely relies on remaining undetected from an opponent!

and to compound the mistake you go on to imply the cop should have been announcing his presence, in advance, to an unseen suspect!

dowie said:
You can't guarantee that at all, for all you know the weak, frequently bullied kid with the rifle would suddenly **** his pants at the shouting from an unseen police officer, and doubly so if shot at...
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Obviously I don't know all of the circumstances, but as far as I am aware we aren't really talking about "a trained armed response officer" but basically a 54 year old community liaison officer that happened to have a gun.

Not that what he did or did not do actually matters any more, he is an effective scapegoat.
 
Think we are forgetting this was a middle age man employed as a SRO for the last 30 years with a wide variety of duties including social ones.

Inbetween breaking up teenagers pulling each others hair I’m not sure how much training or practice he got taking down suicidal assault rifle wielding maniacs but I’m assuming very little.

It appears he wasnt equipped to deal with this situation, hence why he didn’t. Whilst it’s easy for his superiors to condemn him it is they who are at fault.
 
Caracus2k said:
You were the one who suggested it would be a good idea for the cop (in this scenario likely only armed with a pistol) to enter the building announcing his presence to a suspect!
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yup, while kids were being killed... far better to either shoot at the suspect or get him to put the weapon down than stand outside doing nothing!


Which has been pointed out to you to be a ludicrous suggestion......... If it were me with the pistol and you with the rifle and I made the decision to enter a building to try and stop you I would definitely not be announcing my presence to you in advance.... if you were very lucky and I caught you say mid reload or facing in completely the opposite direction to me, and unaware of my presence, I might consider a verbal challenge... most likely followed by a quick hail of bullets from my gun heading in your direction as you failed to react quickly enough (and in the correct manner) to my challenge
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oh so you wouldn't, it's ludicrous... oh but you actually might in some scenario.. well glad that's cleared up.

RDM said:
Obviously I don't know all of the circumstances, but as far as I am aware we aren't really talking about "a trained armed response officer" but basically a 54 year old community liaison officer that happened to have a gun.
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He's a police officer - I'm not sure where "community liaison officer" has come from? He's an armed police officer who, at this point in his career, is assigned to a school.
 
dowie said:
oh so you wouldn't, it's ludicrous... oh but you actually might in some scenario.. well glad that's cleared up.
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You are the one suggesting the cop should have been shouting about his presence to an unseen suspect! How about you accept that would be idiotic? .... and ill give you the potential of a verbal challenge in very limited circumstances?
 
Caracus2k said:
You are the one suggesting the cop should have been shouting about his presence to an unseen suspect! How about you accept that would be idiotic? .... and ill give you the potential of a verbal challenge in very limited circumstances?
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I've not suggested that.

You seem to be attacking a straw man now..
 
dowie said:
re read what you've quoted and what you've think I said...
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You clearly implied that the officer should have gone in shouting there was a cop on the scene to 'restrict the movement' of the shooter... and also laughably implied the officer having announced his presence could 'stay behind cover'...

In the very limited circumstances were a verbal challenge might of been appropriate in the circumstances it would not have been to 'restrict the movement' of the shooter it would have been to give them a very limited window of opportunity to surrender or failing that the cop would have to respond with a quick succession of bullets fired at the suspect with the intent of firmly stopping them where they were

dowie said:
He's better equipped than any of the kids being actively killed, and I'd disagree an armed police officer stepping in would likely make a big difference there! Instead of kids carrying on being shot the shooter has a more pressing matter to respond to. Again I'm not suggesting he goes in Rambo style... but I don't think he'd necessarily die either, I think it is more likely he could stay behind cover and at least restrict the moment of the shooter.
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You appear now to be trying to say that I actually agree with your initial claim because I will state that there are some very limited circumstances in which I would consider a verbal challenge to a suspect in such a scenario... of course the only situation I would consider this is where I was very certain that I could stop an opponent, at close range, with a hail of bullets in your direction should you fail to comply without an opponent likely being able to even point a loaded firearm in my direction
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Caracus2k said:
You clearly implied that the officer should have gone in shouting there was a cop on the scene to 'restrict the movement' of the shooter... and also laughably implied the officer having announced his presence could 'stay behind cover'...
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I said that it would be better for the officer to shoot or shout at the suspect to put down his weapon - you can't really do that (especially the shooting part) if you can't see the suspect. I hope you have re-read my posts a bit more carefully and noted "unseen police officer" not "unseen suspect" as the latter makes no sense - you were attacking something that you'd confused yourself.
 
So everyone in here appears to be an expert on US police training. What was the officer actually trained to do in this situation? Call for back up or approach and engage the man with the assault rifle whilst on his own with just a hand gun?

Personally I don't know, so i would genuinely like to know what he was supposed to do in that situation.
 
Jono8 said:
So everyone in here appears to be an expert on US police training. What was the officer actually trained to do in this situation? Call for back up or approach and engage the man with the assault rifle whilst on his own with just a hand gun?

Personally I don't know, so i would genuinely like to know what he was supposed to do in that situation.
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He was supposed to intervene, thus the story and his department criticising him.
 
dowie said:
He was supposed to intervene, thus the story and his department criticising him.
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Oh I see. So an armed man who was on site and specifically trained to intervene in these situations did not stop the shooting and did not prevent 17 people getting killed.
 
Jono8 said:
Oh I see. So an armed man who was on site and specifically trained to intervene in these situations did not stop the shooting and did not prevent 17 people getting killed.
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well I'm not sure he could stop all of the shooting, but as he arrived at the building after the first minute of shooting and it carried on for another 4 minutes then he could have perhaps helped prevent some of those deaths
 
Seems the other police dept who arrived at the scene to assist isn't happy at all about the situation to say the least - not just the officer who was on the scene but didn't enter the building while the shooting took place but also other officers who arrived and also waited outside while kids requiring first aid were likely inside bleeding to death... especially grating for the parents perhaps is that unarmed school teachers and sports coaches apparently did enter the building to rescue kids.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/02/23/politics/parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies/index.html

many officers were surprised to find not only that Broward County Sheriff's Deputy Scot Peterson, the armed school resource officer, had not entered the building, but that three other Broward County Sheriff's deputies were also outside the school and had not entered, Coral Springs sources tell CNN. The deputies had their pistols drawn and were behind their vehicles, the sources said, and not one of them had gone into the school.

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What these Coral Springs officers observed -- though not their feelings about it -- will be released in a report, likely next week. Sources cautioned that tapes are currently being reviewed and official accounts could ultimately differ from recollections of officers on the scene.
The resentment among Coral Springs officials toward Broward County officials about what they perceived to be a dereliction of duty may have reached a boiling point at a vigil the night of February 15, where, in front of dozens of others, Coral Springs City Manager Mike Goodrum confronted Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel. A source familiar with the conversation tells CNN that Goodrum was upset that the Broward deputies had remained outside the school while kids inside could have been bleeding out, among other reasons.
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also this was interesting:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/b...-experts-on-scot-peterson-20180223-story.html

Security video footage showed Peterson stood outside the school for four minutes or so while 17 students and staff members were gunned down, Israel said. Another 16 people were injured.

Law enforcement protocols changed after the April 1999 shootings at the Columbine high school in Colorado. At Columbine, the first officers who arrived on scene set up a perimeter to try to control the crime scene and waited for SWAT officers to show up.

Everything changed after that because many of the victims were killed or injured while SWAT officers were rushing to the scene. Trainers began teaching officers to immediately confront the shooter and try to reduce the body count.

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The Broward sheriff’s office standard operating procedure on active shooters states: “If real time intelligence exists the sole deputy or a team of deputies may enter the area and/or structure to preserve life. A supervisor’s approval or on-site observation is not required for this decision.”

That contact should continue until the shooter has either been forced to surrender, forced into a barricaded situation; been stopped; or the SWAT team takes over.

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unarmed coaches and teachers in the same situation ran toward gunfire to save high school students, Blair said: “That certainly makes it harder to say he shouldn’t have gone in.”
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dowie said:
he doesn't necessarily have to turn into Rambo here

simply entering the building, firing at the suspect and/or just shouting at him/making him aware of the presence of police could well be sufficient... it at the very least gives the suspect something else to be concerned about and restricts his movement/potentially allowing kids to escape... it doesn't mean the police officer at say one end of a corridor/hall or whatever needs to break cover and go charging at the suspect sacrificing his own life in the process etc..
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he still puts his life at risk as soon as he enters and nobody here knows if they would have done the same he might wear a badge and carry a gun but he is still just a man.
 
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