Today's mass shooting in the US

[dowie]

he still puts his life at risk as soon as he enters and nobody here knows if they would have done the same he might wear a badge and carry a gun but he is still just a man.

so are the unarmed teachers who went in... so are the other police officers who later arrived and went in (and seemingly weren't happy with the first four at the scene who didn't while kids who needed first aid were inside bleeding)

perhaps he shouldn't have signed up to wear that badge and take the money if he wasn't actually prepared to potentially face an armed suspect.. it's like joining the fire service but only wanting to rescue cats from trees or put out bonfires but saying **** that if something like the greenfell tower happens or 9/11 etc..

 

[Roar87]

so are the unarmed teachers who went in... so are the other police officers who later arrived and went in (and seemingly weren't happy with the first four at the scene who didn't while kids who needed first aid were inside bleeding)

perhaps he shouldn't have signed up to wear that badge and take the money if he wasn't actually prepared to potentially face an armed suspect.. it's like joining the fire service but only wanting to rescue cats from trees or put out bonfires but saying **** that if something like the greenfell tower happens or 9/11 etc..

No one knows how they will act when bullets start firing or they get a call to go into a burning building. I was listening to an interview earlier in the week and in the Navy Seals they've had people resign and fly home after seeing combat once, not even anything horrific, just an exchange of fire. And that's after countless months of training with an elite unit. The guy's resigned, I'm sure right now he wishes he did go into the building.

 

[bingham67]

Seems a lot of companies are pulling away from supporting the NRA good news

 

[a1ex2001]

No one knows how they will act when bullets start firing or they get a call to go into a burning building. I was listening to an interview earlier in the week and in the Navy Seals they've had people resign and fly home after seeing combat once, not even anything horrific, just an exchange of fire. And that's after countless months of training with an elite unit. The guy's resigned, I'm sure right now he wishes he did go into the building.

Exactly my point traning can better equip you to deal with a situation but there is no guarantee until you've tested yourself. Gareth Southgate probably scored a dozen penalties in training it didn't help come match day. We all think we would be heros from the comfort of our arm chairs but a good percentage of us would be hiding behind desks praying it wasn't us next and you have no idea if that's you or not until you get there. The guy clearly should have gone in but got what ever reason couldn't he has resigned and will have to live with the consequences thecredt of his life have some sympathy or st least pity for the guy.

 

[a1ex2001]

Seems a lot of companies are pulling away from supporting the NRA good news

This time it does all feel a little different the NRA feel more isolated thecweightbif oublic opinion is shifting as shown in the decline in gun ownership etc the NRA won't go easy though I expect them to fight even harder now like any wounded animal.

 

[a1ex2001]

so are the unarmed teachers who went in... so are the other police officers who later arrived and went in (and seemingly weren't happy with the first four at the scene who didn't while kids who needed first aid were inside bleeding)

perhaps he shouldn't have signed up to wear that badge and take the money if he wasn't actually prepared to potentially face an armed suspect.. it's like joining the fire service but only wanting to rescue cats from trees or put out bonfires but saying **** that if something like the greenfell tower happens or 9/11 etc..

He probably thought he would be fine but when it came down to it he couldn't do it. He had probably never drawn his gun in anger (most American cops don't) and you can't train for it. The fire service weeds out those that can't do the job with simulators the smoke rooms and the like are enough to let you know if you can do it sadly cops like soldiers can't actually go into the real situation the number of soldiers in the Second World War for example who when things got hot never even discharged their weapons is frightening. Training cannot prepare you fully for the real thing and some people despite the best intentions crack at the key moment.

The fact you can't see or understand this says plenty, I hope you are never in a situation like this to find out how you react.

 

[physichull]

He was supposed to intervene, thus the story and his department criticising him.

A handgun going against an AR-15 is absolute madness. For Trump to criticise and suggest he is a coward is just insanity. Just when I think I couldn't dislike Trump anymore....he opens his trap and says something else.

 

[a1ex2001]

A handgun going against an AR-15 is absolute madness. For Trump to criticise and suggest he is a coward is just insanity. Just when I think I couldn't dislike Trump anymore....he opens his trap and says something else.

The guy should have gone in it is clearly his duty bad odds or not. He didn't because he couldn't for what ever reason and now he will have to live with that which is not something I would wish on anyone.

 

[physichull]

The guy should have gone in it is clearly his duty bad odds or not. He didn't because he couldn't for what ever reason and now he will have to live with that which is not something I would wish on anyone.

Do you imply blame?

 

[enkoda]

so are the unarmed teachers who went in... so are the other police officers who later arrived and went in (and seemingly weren't happy with the first four at the scene who didn't while kids who needed first aid were inside bleeding)

perhaps he shouldn't have signed up to wear that badge and take the money if he wasn't actually prepared to potentially face an armed suspect.. it's like joining the fire service but only wanting to rescue cats from trees or put out bonfires but saying **** that if something like the greenfell tower happens or 9/11 etc..

If this officer supposedly has the training to storm a building armed with only a handgun and neutralise an unknown number of attackers, why does the U.S. bother having SWAT teams equipped with military-grade weaponry and armoured vehicles?

All that's happening here is deflecting the blame - numerous people and organisations had ample warning and ample opportunity to prevent this from occurring.
Maybe this police officer would never had been in this situation if others had done the jobs they were getting paid for.

The problem now is with Trump publicly condemning Peterson's 'cowardice' how long before the lynch mobs are out wanting to string him up from the nearest tree in true Wild West style?

 

[dowie]

Exactly my point traning can better equip you to deal with a situation but there is no guarantee until you've tested yourself. Gareth Southgate probably scored a dozen penalties in training it didn't help come match day. We all think we would be heros from the comfort of our arm chairs but a good percentage of us would be hiding behind desks praying it wasn't us next and you have no idea if that's you or not until you get there. The guy clearly should have gone in but got what ever reason couldn't he has resigned and will have to live with the consequences thecredt of his life have some sympathy or st least pity for the guy.

I think that's a poor analogy, Gareth Southgate still stepped up and took the penalty, he didn't go back in the changing room and decide taking penalties are not for him.

He probably thought he would be fine but when it came down to it he couldn't do it. He had probably never drawn his gun in anger (most American cops don't) and you can't train for it. The fire service weeds out those that can't do the job with simulators the smoke rooms and the like are enough to let you know if you can do it sadly cops like soldiers can't actually go into the real situation the number of soldiers in the Second World War for example who when things got hot never even discharged their weapons is frightening. Training cannot prepare you fully for the real thing and some people despite the best intentions crack at the key moment.

The fact you can't see or understand this says plenty, I hope you are never in a situation like this to find out how you react.

I think it is more the fact that people perhaps who have only ever worked in safe office jobs have a skewed perspective here. He's not in a safe job, he's signed up to a job that is inherently risky.

 

[dowie]

If this officer supposedly has the training to storm a building armed with only a handgun and neutralise an unknown number of attackers, why does the U.S. bother having SWAT teams equipped with military-grade weaponry and armoured vehicles?

perhaps see the above links... waiting for a SWAT team in these active shooter scenarios is pretty futile. And no I've not said that he's supposed to "neutralise" the attacker... he might or he might simply end up restricting the attacker's movements/allow more people to escape... perhaps the attacker ends up trapped in a classroom etc.. knowing if he sticks his head out of the door a cop at the end of the corridor will shoot at him again.... And of course he might end up getting shot himself.

All that's happening here is deflecting the blame

no, it was genuinely their policy, they can't just make that up after the fact given all the media attention on this as it could quite easily be called out - there are numerous sources on this and there are of course the police officers who did go into the building and aren't too happy at the four officers they found at the scene waiting outside.

And again the unarmed teachers who went in to rescue kids

 

[adolf hamster]

The guy should have gone in it is clearly his duty bad odds or not. He didn't because he couldn't for what ever reason and now he will have to live with that which is not something I would wish on anyone.

Hell of a decision, go in and risk dying, leaving your family alone in this world, or stay outside and hear the screams of children.

Soldiers go in to their jobs knowing that a gunfight to the death is a very likely scenario and even they dont know until they're there and the bullets start flying how they'll react.

This is why we recognise heroism when it happens, because deep down we understand that not everyone is capable of overcoming humanity's ingraned sense of not wanting t9 get brutally injured and killed.

 

[physichull]

IHe's not in a safe job, he's signed up to a job that is inherently risky.

Well perhaps his employer is at fault for him being badly under-equipped for the situation?

That sentence in itself is an appalling sentiment....armed personnel at a school were under equipped to deal with the threat...in a first world country, supposed "leaders of the free world".

 

[dowie]

Well perhaps his employer is at fault for him being badly under-equipped for the situation?

That sentence in itself is an appalling sentiment....armed personnel at a school were under equipped to deal with the threat...in a first world country, supposed "leaders of the free world".

nope, again see the previously posted articles, he was equipped/issued with a rifle, he didn't have it with him when he was at the scene for whatever reason

quote from the article:

"BSO deputies are issued automatic rifles, the sheriff said. Peterson apparently was not carrying his at the time."

 

[enkoda]

perhaps see the above links... waiting for a SWAT team in these active shooter scenarios is pretty futile. And no I've not said that he's supposed to "neutralise" the attacker... he might or he might simply end up restricting the attacker's movements/allow more people to escape... perhaps the attacker ends up trapped in a classroom etc.. knowing if he sticks his head out of the door a cop at the end of the corridor will shoot at him again.... And of course he might end up getting shot himself.

Only if the corridor is less than 60 yards....

no, it was genuinely their policy, they can't just make that up after the fact given all the media attention on this as it could quite easily be called out - there are numerous sources on this and there are of course the police officers who did go into the building and aren't too happy at the four officers they found at the scene waiting outside.

And again the unarmed teachers who went in to rescue kids

The FBI failed to act on information passed to them, they even admit it themselves. This is down to incompetence or negligence, either way someone didn't do the job they were getting paid to do.

FBI director Christopher Wray was last night facing calls to quit after the organisation admitted it failed to act on a tip off it received about the suspect in the Florida high school shooting.

Rick Scott , the Florida Governor, said Mr Wray "[needed] to resign" over the "unacceptable" failings after the intelligence agency revealed it was warned that the suspect, Nikolas Cruz, had a "desire to kill people" almost six weeks ago

The FBI's stunning admission has raised questions over whether it could have prevented Wednesday's shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, which left 17 people dead.

Mr Scott hit out at the intelligence agency in highly critical statement, saying the "FBI's failure to take action against this killer is unacceptable".

"An apology will never bring these 17 Floridians back to life or comfort the families who are in pain."

Florida senator Marco Rubio also criticised the FBI, saying it was "inexcusable" that the bureau did not follow protocols and called for Congress to launch its own investigations into what happened.

19-year-old Cruz contacted the agency with concerns about his social media posts and his possession of firearms on January 5 but agents neglected to pass the information on to its Florida branch.

"Under established protocols, the information provided by the caller should have been assessed as a potential threat to life," the FBI said.

"The information then should have been forwarded to the FBI Miami field office, where appropriate investigative steps would have been taken. We have determined that these protocols were not followed."

On Thursday, it was revealed that the FBI was separately warned in September that a YouTube user with the same name as Cruz had threatened to become a "professional school shooter".

Ben Bennight, a 36-year-old YouTube video blogger from Mississippi, told CNN he contacted the agency after a comment by a user with the name Nikolas Cruz left the alarming comment on a video he had posted.

Mr Wray, the FBI's director, said the bureau is continuing to investigate how the oversight occurred.

"We have spoken with victims and families, and deeply regret the additional pain this causes all those affected by this horrific tragedy," Mr Wray said in the statement.

[Linky ---> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/16/fbi-says-failed-act-tip-florida-shooter/]

Seems pretty clear cut to me that the FBI's policy is to act upon this information and they failed to do so.

 

[dowie]

The FBI failed to act on information passed to them, they even admit it themselves. This is down to incompetence or negligence, either way someone didn't do the job they were getting paid to do.


[Linky ---> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/16/fbi-says-failed-act-tip-florida-shooter/]

Seems pretty clear cut to me that the FBI's policy is to act upon this information and they failed to do so.

OK, but I'm not sure why you're quoting my post about the police officer in reference to that?

 

[physichull]

nope, again see the previously posted articles, he was equipped/issued with a rifle, he didn't have it with him when he was at the scene for whatever reason

quote from the article:

"BSO deputies are issued automatic rifles, the sheriff said. Peterson apparently was not carrying his at the time."

Regardless, its a minor point.

Potential outcomes...

He goes into the school with a gun....who does he shoot, the assailant has dropped his arms, a frightenedbinnocent bystanding kid sends the wrong messages and gets shot in error?

He goes into the school, spots the assailaint but cant cake a shot for fear of further wounding innocents?

He goes into the school and risks death around every corridor, guns tend to level the playing field...would you fancy your chances?

At the time of the shooting, nobody will know whether the gunman is a young student, a group of students or a group of adults, they don't know what they are armed with, are they carrying explosive vests and how many are there, reliable information at the time would have been nil. Would you risk your life without knowing the answer to at least some of those questions? Would the best response be to simply stay put at your post? Has the assailant taken hostagges, in which case would it be too risky to go in all guns blazing at that point?

The armed guard is in no way to blame for this whole tradgedy, nor is his response or percieved lack of response.

 

[dowie]

Regardless, its a minor point.

well it is the only point you raised in that post

Potential outcomes...

yup lots of potential outcomes... and of course the known outcome of not doing anything, standing outside and 17 kids dying

it isn't like these shootings haven't occurred previously in the US and been assessed by law enforcement... it isn't like those questions you're asking haven't been thought of before by the people who made these policies - as a result of previous mass shootings the policy when there is an active shooting taking place is not to wait for backup but to respond immediately. that is what the officer's department has said, that is what various other law enforcement experts quoted in the press have said.

The armed guard is in no way to blame for this whole tradgedy, nor is his response or percieved lack of response.

Not just an armed guard but an armed police officer. I didn't say he was to blame for this whole tragedy, he is however facing blame over his response and three of his colleagues are getting some criticism too - not just his response to the shooting but also the immediate aftermath where all four of them still waited outside while children in urgent need of first aid were inside

 

[enkoda]

OK, but I'm not sure why you're quoting my post about the police officer in reference to that?

My bad, I posted about deflecting blame and realise now that your post about policy was to do with the police department.