Today's mass shooting in the US

dowie said:
well it is the only point you raised in that post



yup lots of potential outcomes... and of course the known outcome of not doing anything, standing outside and 17 kids dying

it isn't like these shootings haven't occurred previously in the US and been assessed by law enforcement... it isn't like those questions you're asking haven't been thought of before by the people who made these policies - as a result of previous mass shootings the policy when there is an active shooting taking place is not to wait for backup but to respond immediately. that is what the officer's department has said, that is what various other law enforcement experts quoted in the press have said.



Not just an armed guard but an armed police officer. I didn't say he was to blame for this whole tragedy, he is however facing blame over his response and three of his colleagues are getting some criticism too - not just his response to the shooting but also the immediate aftermath where all four of them still waited outside while children in urgent need of first aid were inside
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Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing.

All four of them waiting outside whilst children in need of first aid were inside. Again, I see nothing of fault in that. Say the assailants were a group of heavily armed individuals with suicide vests? Well add another four to your total.
 
Gonna hate myself for all the notifications I'll get from this thread but this was posted earlier:

The Broward sheriff’s office standard operating procedure on active shooters states: “If real time intelligence exists the sole deputy or a team of deputies may enter the area and/or structure to preserve life. A supervisor’s approval or on-site observation is not required for this decision.”
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Emphasis mine.

Real Time Intelligence and May are very important and probably overlooked by almost everyone!

I think the cop did right. No suitable intelligence. Puts himself and all others at risk by firing more shots unnecessarily. Risks confusing the situation when backup arrives.

Lives were lost in a truly awful way buy you cannot pin the blame on one person who didn't have reliable intel by what accounts we have.
 
physichull said:
Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing.
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Hindsight? As if this is the first time a mass shooting has occurred in the US? Again it is their department's policy.

All four of them waiting outside whilst children in need of first aid were inside. Again, I see nothing of fault in that. Say the assailants were a group of heavily armed individuals with suicide vests? Well add another four to your total.
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Well the unarmed teachers clearly saw fault with that and went in to rescue kids as did the police officers from another police force who arrived at the scene and did go straight in...
 
dowie said:
it isn't like these shootings haven't occurred previously in the US and been assessed by law enforcement... it isn't like those questions you're asking haven't been thought of before by the people who made these policies - as a result of previous mass shootings the policy when there is an active shooting taking place is not to wait for backup but to respond immediately. that is what the officer's department has said, that is what various other law enforcement experts quoted in the press have said.
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Is there any evidence that this policy has actually worked in a real situation or is it just written into the training manual in the hope it works? Genuinely interested...
 
Psymonkee said:
Gonna hate myself for all the notifications I'll get from this thread but this was posted earlier:



Emphasis mine.

Real Time Intelligence and May are very important and probably overlooked by almost everyone!

I think the cop did right. No suitable intelligence. Puts himself and all others at risk by firing more shots unnecessarily. Risks confusing the situation when backup arrives.

Lives were lost in a truly awful way buy you cannot pin the blame on one person who didn't have reliable intel by what accounts we have.
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Spot on.
 
Psymonkee said:
Gonna hate myself for all the notifications I'll get from this thread but this was posted earlier:



Emphasis mine.

Real Time Intelligence and May are very important and probably overlooked by almost everyone!

I think the cop did right. No suitable intelligence. Puts himself and all others at risk by firing more shots unnecessarily. Risks confusing the situation when backup arrives.

Lives were lost in a truly awful way buy you cannot pin the blame on one person who didn't have reliable intel by what accounts we have.
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Sheriff Israel certainly overlooked it and I doubt Trump even understands it.
 
physichull said:
One mass shooting does not equate to the outcomes of the next mass shooting. Prescedant does not equal the conclusion.
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no but evidence from the results of multiple mass shootings have been used to guide the policies on further ones...

enkoda said:
Is there any evidence that this policy has actually worked in a real situation or is it just written into the training manual in the hope it works? Genuinely interested...
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Yes, see earlier in the thread, the US has had multiple mass shootings. The article linked to before re: the training centre cited the co-author of a study for the dept of justice into mass shootings - he's a professor who has a research interest in this area and he is the director of the training centre that has trained thousands of police officers to handle active shooter events. The policy towards them changed after the Columbine shootings. so as much as we can all pose the same questions on here that have no doubt been thought of before the experts over there are saying that in a situation like this the police officer likely should have entered.
 
Caracus2k said:
I don't think that link helps prove (what you presumably believe it might) anyway...

one it has no bearing on the common sense (or distinct lack thereof) of a person armed with a pistol announcing themselves in advance! to a person there know is most likely armed with a semi automatic rifle... this was a routine traffic stop

It also shows how rubbish pistols are at actually effectively stopping a suspect in quick order.... the suspect doesn't even try to shoot the officer (he could not as the gun was unloaded) and actually tried to hit the officer with the butt of the weapon. The officer, at extreme close range, manages to shoot the suspect twice (he did very well to react so quickly by drawing so fast) and the suspect is able to continue running away from the officer to a quite considerable distance before he stops.

I'm have to disagree with you on the (regular) cop with a hand gun vs suspect with a rifle scenario.... (assuming the rifle actually has bullets) especially if the encounter doesn't start at extreme close range. If the rifle suspect knows the cop is coming (say because he has be stupid enough to announce his presence in advance) the cop is dead in almost all the different ways that scenario plays out and often without landing a single effective shot on his or her target
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It shows how quick the officer is at drawing his weapon and putting shots on target, thats all I wanted to prove. I'm sure I could find a more comparable video.

IronWarrior said:
That's a amazing video, really shows fast things can go down.
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Aye, everyone here should sub to Active Self Protection, it opens your eyes thats for sure, and shows that in a gun fight things don't always play out how you think they would.
 
Johno please? said:
It shows how quick the officer is at drawing his weapon and putting shots on target, thats all I wanted to prove. I'm sure I could find a more comparable video.



Aye, everyone here should sub to Active Self Protection, it opens your eyes thats for sure, and shows that in a gun fight things don't always play out how you think they would.
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This is quite a good example but certainly isn't without criticism:

It definitely highlights the issue of being able to respond to an immediate threat regardless of firearms handling capability.
 
Screeeech said:
Well there's a load off my mind - an obese umpa lumpa shambling head first into a volley of AR15 rounds and apparently saving the day.

He's talking like a village idiot.
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While people are outraged by what he says though that is deflecting attention from the real issues of gun control, etc.
 
Psymonkee said:
Gonna hate myself for all the notifications I'll get from this thread but this was posted earlier:



Emphasis mine.

Real Time Intelligence and May are very important and probably overlooked by almost everyone!

I think the cop did right. No suitable intelligence. Puts himself and all others at risk by firing more shots unnecessarily. Risks confusing the situation when backup arrives.

Lives were lost in a truly awful way buy you cannot pin the blame on one person who didn't have reliable intel by what accounts we have.
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If he'd gone in and shot the shooter he'd be all over the news and receiving medals for heroism, he potentially could have saved lots of lives. It's just making excuses for cowardice imo. If your job is to protect the public and you stand by and do nothing while the public are getting shot you are a coward and should change jobs. I'm sure soldiers could hide in a corner somewhere on the battlefield and cite legalise to excuse it but it doesn't change what they are.
 
mmj_uk said:
If he'd gone in and shot the shooter he'd be all over the news and receiving medals for heroism, he potentially could have saved lots of lives.
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If he had gone in, if he found the shooter, if he shot him, if he avoided being killed himself,. Yes, in that case he would have been be receiving medals. But there was also the possibility that his family may have been burying him. I'm not going to judge him for being afraid or not being able to act. I'd like to say that I would have if in his shoes but you really don't know until the time comes.
 
If I'm a cop assigned to school security, I'm there for an easy ride, away from the mean streets.

Like hell I'm the right cop to be dealing with an active shooter situation solo.
 
If only Trump had gone to war when he was drafted and got a medal of honour then may be I'll believe him.

But he didn't and that bone spur would have tripped him up on the way up on his way inside the school no doubt.
 
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