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Where the hell is NAVI???????????

bru said:
We all have had this assumption that the Radeon V11's are failed MI50 instinct cards, but Ill just point out that the MI50 instinct cards are listed with lower clocks on the core, the same clocks on the memory and consequently slightly lower peak throughputs.


So Ill just ask what part of the Radeon V11 is a failed chip?

Personally I have no idea, as far as I can tell, if it works then it could be used for either.

Anyway this is off topic for this thread, so apologies.
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It is a failed MI60, with fewer cores. I don;t think anyone has said it is a failed MI50.

I'm guessing there isn;t as much market for the MI50 as MI60. Moreover, there might be different on die quality. R7 might run hotter or fail udner some critical compute loads that don;t impact gaming.
 
LePhuronn said:
Is that why the GTX 1080 costs £300+ more than the RTX 2080?

Now, I'm not trying to portray AMD as some kind of charity and saviour of all, but if AMD sell a 2070-matching RX 3080 for £400 then they're idiotic and just perpetuating all the price gouging greed going on in the GPU sector. They're not price-matching Intel for comparably-performing Ryzen 2000s, I don't see them exceeding Intel pricing when Ryzen 3000 crushes all that opposes it (gotta love hyperbole), so why would they match Nvidia prices with Navi? We've seen Apple and Nvidia take big hits in sales because they've gone a step too far in milking their customers, and you can make just as much profit from high-volume, low margin sales as you can low-volume, high margin sales (don't mention Radeon VII, that's a unique and messy situation).

AMD have a massive uphill battle in terms of mind share, not just market share, and if they can smash out something to match RTX 2070, undercut it by $100 and still make a healthy profit, then it will fly off the shelves, boosting opinion and market share in one hit. It's a long-term strategic game, and doing a short-term thing of "well, we've matched the 2070 so let's charge the same for it" just will not work.

Yes, and that applies across the board regardless of how Navi performs. Like I said above, they could charge £400 for a RTX 2070 competitor, but is that a sufficient undercut to swing sales? A RTX 2060 competitor for £300? That's only £40 cheaper; is it enough? It's not about just profit, it's about gaining market share.

So let's say an RX 3080 does indeed match the RTX 2070 and it costs AMD £150 to make. They could charge £400 and have a 267% profit margin for every sale. They could charge £300 for it and have a 200% profit margin (and I agree with you in that I'd snap one up in a heartbeat). Now yes, they'd make more money per sale on the former, but if they have double the total sales with the latter then that's simply more profit, and increase in market share and an increase in consumer confidence in the brand (i.e. fair pricing and not total rip-off merchants).

All the good stuff for shareholders. And seeing how Nvidia shareholders are selling in droves because of poor RTX sales (for one), I'm inclined to believe AMD won't make the same mistake themselves.
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Well 1080 probably has so little stock they know eventually blind buyers will buy the rest of stock, so when stock of Polaris drop to the same levels they'll probably rise too. The fact the 590 sells any cards shows people don't always buy on the value proposition.

I think AMD will sell well and win back some marketshare by having a product matching the 2060 with more VRAM for £50 less, yes. Vega 56 is currently selling like hotcakes, so a cooler card drawing less power for the same price with a tad more performance will sell at the same price.

What would you be preferred to pay for 2070 level performance in an AMD card? £400 would undercut the 2070 by a fair bit. What about £400 with games? Does £350 without games get you tempted? 10% more than a 2060 for 10% more performance with an extra 2gb of VRAM.

Obviously I'd love for lower prices too but I'm thinking about what's realistic.
 
LePhuronn said:
If anybody has been saying "wait for Navi" then their disappointment will be of their own making. It's always been wait for Arcturus to see AMD return to form, if they can. Navi has never, ever been discussed as more than a mid-range product, offering only a smidgen more performance than what we have already but at a more sensible cost - those AdoredTV leaks fuelled existing discussion, not spark a new one.
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Unfortunately that's how things work nowadays, Rumours are rife & many so called Tech sites have no compunction about what they report on, they don't validate their sources as clickbait's where they earn their revenue. I see it as Navi will offer what Polaris did in relation to how it performed & compared to AMD's last gen offerings, Like last time we get a die shrink & a new architecture, last time we went from 28nm to 14nm & this time from 14nm to 7nm. Navi is not a Vega replacement it's a Polaris replacement so just like how Fiji & Grenada owners had to skip Polaris & wait for Vega we'll now have to skip Navi & wait for Arcturus.
 
@ANDREW GREEN : since we have no confirmation of Navi specs it's all pie-in-the-sky speculation. Yes, £400 for RTX 2070 performance is a nice wedge off (£60 or so?) but it's still silly money. People are quick to point out AMD are years late to the party and only just matching the GTX 1080, yet 2 year old performance should still cost £400 at the end of 2019?

You would expect, nay demand, that the midrange segment should be reaching near flagship performance of the previous generation - GTX 1080 should be mid-tier now - but the prices of that midrange segment shouldn't be wildly increasing, otherwise we're just not getting any improvement with each generation, just bigger bills.
 
LePhuronn said:
If anybody has been saying "wait for Navi" then their disappointment will be of their own making
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I've been under the impression that Navi is going to be amazing considering that 66% of the endineers at RTG were working on it. The Vega team was seriously short staffed because some of their best enginners had been told to work on Navi instead. Even RTG leader Raja Koduri resigned because he wasn't given enough engineering hours to make Vega the product he hoped it would be.
 
CuriousTomCat said:
I've been under the impression that Navi is going to be amazing considering that 66% of the endineers at RTG were working on it. The Vega team was seriously short staffed because some of their best enginners had been told to work on Navi instead. Even RTG leader Raja Koduri resigned because he wasn't given enough engineering hours to make Vega the product he hoped it would be.
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Raja resigning had more to do with him wanting rtg to separate from AMD and get snapped up by intel. (allegedly)

As for Vega, i doubt they could have done much more with it regardless of how many engineers they had on it, supposedly a lot of them were working on Ryzen as Vega was being developed. We'll never know the 100% truth either way, just snippets of it slanted to the favour of whatever side is telling the story.
 
CuriousTomCat said:
I've been under the impression that Navi is going to be amazing considering that 66% of the endineers at RTG were working on it.
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What's got my attention is this will be the first gaming-first arch in a couple of years and designed to be built on 7nm from the outset. Not a compute jack-of-all-trades, not a node shrink, but a dedicated and lean gaming chip. I'm not expecting miracles in performance since it's still GCN, but it'll give a good indication of where RTG are now and what they can do.

I honestly think this will be RTG's Zen in that it's a solid foundation to build new ideas, new processes and a new vision, and shake up the market a bit to boot. Hopefully with the move away from GCN, Arcturus will be another Zen 2.
 
CuriousTomCat said:
Arcturus is purely a high end product though I think so hopefully Navi will continue to be the mid-range?
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I have no idea. All I've seen is Arcturus will be something new, not GCN. If it's still designed to be gaming first then we could see it scalable across all product tiers. Navi always felt like a bit of a stop gap too.
 
Me said:
Navi is not a Vega replacement it's a Polaris replacement...
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LePhuronn said:
If the spec leak is accurate then Navi is replacing both.
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Hi, You say this ^^ & then in the very next post you say "since we have no confirmation of Navi specs it's all pie-in-the-sky speculation" so what do we know? That Navi is a Polaris replacement? Unless I'm remembering wrong we were told that long ago & everything else since then can be categorised as rumour, speculation or fake news. IMO we won't see a big performance leap until AMD move away from GCN & even then we don't know how long it'll take the driver team to get comfortable working with it. Currently RTG's driver team are doing a great job but that in part is due to everything being GCN based since 2011. With Navi still being GCN architecture the sensible option is to kerb our expectations regardless of what the rumour millers might say.
 
Nash, everything about Navi is speculation because AMD have said literally nothing. Truth be told, I can't even recall if AMD themselves said Navi is aimed at the midrange, or if that came from tech press.

But I don't see where the contradiction in my statements comes from; by whatever source, it's been long established that Navi is expected to be a midrange product, the AdoredTV leaks also show a midrange product, and the targeted performance tiers in that leak suggest that Navi is a replacement for both Polaris and Vega - how can RX Vega 64 continue to exist if the leaked RX 3080 has 15% more performance? Also Gibbo has said a few times that Vega 56 is EOL.

Now yes, I may have used some optimistic logic in believing there could be a RX 3090 (for lack of a better term) which would replace Radeon VII and that really is borne from my own conjecture, but I don't recall ever saying Navi is the Second Coming of Christ, R.I.P. Nvidia or similar such nonsense. In fact, I've been quite forthright in saying "don't expect anything substantial until Arcturus". My expectations have been kerbed since the start because Navi is still GCN, but I've also not seen rumour millers pushing Navi as anything more than GTX 1060 to GTX 1080 performance levels.
 
IMO Navi will be around Verga VII / RTX 2080 but under £400, at which point nVidia will release Turing cards without RT to compete.
 
humbug said:
I don't know what you mean by that?
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I mean I assume that there’s a chunk of space used up by the rt cores that they can replace with raster ones, I doubt they would, but stranger things have happened.

It would then be ultimately ‘better’ if you don’t care for RTX. (Good for the consumer mind you)
 
humbug said:
IMO Navi will be around Verga VII / RTX 2080 but under £400
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That's fits with my crazy, completely unsubstantiated theory that the Navi 10 used in RX 3080 is a cut down variant leaving the full-fat Navi 10 waiting in the wings. RX 3080 is leaked at Vega 64 +15% performance, so a full-fat Navi 10 would probably be Vega 64 +25% or so, which is directly Radeon VII performance. Ditch the HBM2 for GDDR6 and the price comes down to something sensible.
 
StriderX said:
I mean I assume that there’s a chunk of space used up by the rt cores that they can replace with raster ones, I doubt they would, but stranger things have happened.

It would then be ultimately ‘better’ if you don’t care for RTX. (Good for the consumer mind you)
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That is true, yes they could.

LePhuronn said:
That's fits with my crazy, completely unsubstantiated theory that the Navi 10 used in RX 3080 is a cut down variant leaving the full-fat Navi 10 waiting in the wings. RX 3080 is leaked at Vega 64 +15% performance, so a full-fat Navi 10 would probably be Vega 64 +25% or so, which is directly Radeon VII performance. Ditch the HBM2 for GDDR6 and the price comes down to something sensible.
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Right...
 
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