Sale of petrol and diesel cars to be banned by 2040
- Thread starter Big Spender
- Start date
Really surprised some of the reactions on this forum. It’s a tech forum, but some people can’t see the wood for the trees!
ICE cars are a stupid stupid solution to the problem. Imagine for a second that personal transport did not exist, and was invented tomorrow. How would you do it? Sure as heck wouldn’t build a super complex box of explosions and supporting mechanics!
Let me be clear. I LOVE cars, I love noises polluting lumpy V8s and boosted 4 pots and everything else. I drive a 4C, it’s loud and stupid and I love it. BUT it is stupid, and objectively crap compared to electrification.
There will still be ICE cars, just like there are still people who like Vinyl, riding horses and using film cameras. But they will be niche and enthusiast driven.
ICE cars are a stupid stupid solution to the problem. Imagine for a second that personal transport did not exist, and was invented tomorrow. How would you do it? Sure as heck wouldn’t build a super complex box of explosions and supporting mechanics!
Let me be clear. I LOVE cars, I love noises polluting lumpy V8s and boosted 4 pots and everything else. I drive a 4C, it’s loud and stupid and I love it. BUT it is stupid, and objectively crap compared to electrification.
There will still be ICE cars, just like there are still people who like Vinyl, riding horses and using film cameras. But they will be niche and enthusiast driven.
Permabanned
- Joined
- 25 Oct 2004
- Posts
- 9,078
Electric would have been the only means of transport had it not been for the money grabbers in the early 1900s, they saw a cheap alternative and went with that, instead of the better solution which would have been Electric. Could you imagine the tech we would have no had we gone through 100 years of innovation in electric vehicles?
The first car was electric! Have you not seen phone batteries progress in only the last few.
Hindsight is very easy but oil drove the massive technology advances of the last century and created the huge global economies today. Countries got rich on oil, especially Norway who are now in the position they are in. Rich from oil allowing them to push EV harder than most countries.
Hindsight is very easy but oil drove the massive technology advances of the last century and created the huge global economies today. Countries got rich on oil, especially Norway who are now in the position they are in. Rich from oil allowing them to push EV harder than most countries.
A program to electrify personal transport is a massive undertaking.
It isn't just about having EV's available,
This is going to be a trillion pound project affecting every aspect of our national utility network. not to mention our society and economy
I am not saying that we shouldn't do it, but I would not want to undertake something on this scale on the basis that some sort of Trekkish handwavium might come along in 10-15 years time to save the day.
One step at a time using hardware and tech that we know already works is the way to go.
Going down the wrong path and having the project bomb would be a catastrophe on the scale of being on the losing side in a major war.
Someghing like HS2 bombs all we have lost is money and face, Having the EV revolution fail because we were over ambitious and over optimistic would be a national disaster on a Biblical scale!
Small sub 50 mile EV's are doable now really quite cheaply. My ideal EV really is the G-Wiz (Or something perhaps a bit more upmarket but not necessarily with a better overall performance envelope)
The crucial thing is that they are cheap. not that they can go 400 mile on a charge, cheap enough to be a car that somebody can afford to buy "As well" as the larger family PHEV. (Whatever)
A "G-Wiz" type vehicle would meet 90% of my transport needs really And most peoples for that matter). but the other 10% I have to have! even a brand new Tesla 3 wont meet the final 10% either!
With EV's at the price they are, boosted by the insistence that somehow they need to be made as good as or better than ICE cars an EV for me is out of the question so I have to go ICE for everything.
As I said earlier, I am actually tempted (Just for fun) to convert my old VW T3 to ev just as an interesting project.
As I said, i am not opposed to EV's in principle (Or even in practice)
But I am concerned that the national policy is doing all the wrong things for all the wrong reasons!
I think anyone who dismisses the benefit of moving over to EVs needs to travel to Guildford and stand at the end of the high street at rush hour and breath the fumes being poured out of 4 lanes of idling traffic to really understand the benefit of a global adoption of electrification.
There's no question that it is much more convenient to use an ICE. We still have a supply of dinosaur juice, it's relatively cheap and the toxic fumes it generates are poured out the back of your car, so you generally don't care about them. That is until you're sitting a few inches behind the car in front, and their exhaust is being pumped into your cabin.
I'm continually amazed how people can absolutely dismiss any possibility that they could possibly suffer the horrific inconvenience of having to fill up your vehicle with fuel a bit more often than you do now - for the benefits of clean air.
There's no question that it is much more convenient to use an ICE. We still have a supply of dinosaur juice, it's relatively cheap and the toxic fumes it generates are poured out the back of your car, so you generally don't care about them. That is until you're sitting a few inches behind the car in front, and their exhaust is being pumped into your cabin.
I'm continually amazed how people can absolutely dismiss any possibility that they could possibly suffer the horrific inconvenience of having to fill up your vehicle with fuel a bit more often than you do now - for the benefits of clean air.
Realistically it's going to be the end of the century before we see the end of petrol.
It's got as much chance of happening by 2035 as HS2 has of being completed on time and within budget. ONE electric train and they can't even get that right. Compared to converting the whole country to EVs that is a small project.
It's got as much chance of happening by 2035 as HS2 has of being completed on time and within budget. ONE electric train and they can't even get that right. Compared to converting the whole country to EVs that is a small project.
Last edited:
There are some interesting pilots being ran on lamppost charging and also points that rise from underneath road level. This kind of tech is likely to be needed for those that don’t have their own charge points.
The lampposts have already been installed on a London street, can’t remember where though.
The scale of the challenge is vast, but not insurmountable.
The lampposts have already been installed on a London street, can’t remember where though.
The scale of the challenge is vast, but not insurmountable.
I take it you don't live near a coastline. There are offshore wind farms everywhere I can see now - a huge amount of investment has been taking place.
You reckon Elon isn't thinking about this already. I mean - the guy also runs a space agency.
You say suddenly, then 2040 in the same sentence. You realise that 2040 is a few years away, right?
Moving the population to electric cars is a slow process. It has to be a no-brainer for people.
An electric Peugeot 208 is about £8,000 more than a petrol version. If you apply available discounts and purchase on pcp finance with no customer deposit, the electric is £479 per month and the petrol is £309. For most people the petrol version is still by far the most appealing.
An electric Peugeot 208 is about £8,000 more than a petrol version. If you apply available discounts and purchase on pcp finance with no customer deposit, the electric is £479 per month and the petrol is £309. For most people the petrol version is still by far the most appealing.
Yeah, 2035 little change, but beyond 2050 the fuel companies will be considering the economics of hauling fuel around the country, many garages down to one or two pumps from ten. Even the economics of refining the stuff for a reduced consumption so I can see an acceleration of ICE disappearance well before 2100. Fuel will become super expensive before then.
Permabanned
- Joined
- 25 Oct 2004
- Posts
- 9,078
Petrol may be the "most appealing" when you look at on vehicle cost alone, when if you consider the cost of maintenance/fuel as well, then the EV is likely to be cheaper over all. Not only would its tax be zero (petrol anything from £20 to £400), but the cost to recharge its batterly would be as low as £3.50 (50kW @ 7p kWh when charge at night on economy 7 rates) vs refueling a petrol/diesel tank for £62/£65. So if you refueled twice a month, your already nipping at the door of an EV in terms of cost of ownership. More than twice a month and the EV becomes an absolute bargain. When you add on general maintenance as well then the costs really start to spiral.
If I were in a position to buy a new car now, I wouldn't think twice about it, i'd get an electric car regardless and I live in a flat, the infrastructure is there for charging if needed in an emergency but a cable out the window would suffice for the time being.
Permabanned
- Joined
- 25 Oct 2004
- Posts
- 9,078
Get a solar panel installation and charge for free, no tax at all then.
Why not look at the total cost of ownership over the period the car is owned, rather than just the upfront cost?
What is the difference in deprecation, fuel costs, servicing and maintenance costs, between the two vehicles? Also where did you get the costs from?
There has been some but we need clean stable electricity generation to go alongside, that or way to store renewable energy like wind, solar and tidal for 24/7 consumption.
It will be interesting to see what that they tax instead of emissions and fuel, my guess would be pay per mile driving.
Will take forever to charge with a few solar panels, especially in the UK lol
At the moment the infostructure is not there for everyone to move over to EV and that was coming from the gentlman who ran the training coarse i was on to allow me to work on EV cars. He had lots of concerns about everyone moving over to EV. There needs to massive investment into power generation, before i consider moving over to EV. I am sure that i will in the future, but i see it being a long way off, as it will most likely be for the majority of the country. I still question how people like myself will charge our cars at home, when you dont have a driveway and need to run leads across a path. I cant see all firms putting charging points in all the car parking spaces, thats massive amounts of investment that some firms may not wish to spend. What about those who live in the country side, they already have issues with energy supplies. If petrol stations get turned in charging stations with very rapid charging, so you can charge your car like you would fill it put with petrol/diesel maybe then it would work. But thats only if we have the power generation to coupe with it?
Sorry but for me to have a EV it has to be charged at home at a minimum. I don't often go into a city center and there isn't one super market near that that provides charge ports. I work for massive company and again no charge points either.
Okay super markets near me or work may invest but would a car be insured to be left elsewhere whilst it's charged? I very much doubt it.
I'd love the infrastructure to get there as the tech itself is great whilst getting petrol or diesel cars off the road would be great for the environment too.
Permabanned
- Joined
- 25 Oct 2004
- Posts
- 9,078
You'd be surprised at how much of a difference it makes, remember you don't actually need to sun shinning to generate some solar. As long as it is day time a solar panel system will generate something even on a cloudy day. Another thing to consider is battery storage as well, its possible even in the UK with a solar panel system and battery storage to become almost entirely reliant on solar energy and take next to nothing off the grid.