So, what is this going to achieve then?

dowie said:
That isn't clear at all tbh.. this gets easily confused by people say noticing a disparity and then making the dubious leap to conclude that the disparity noted is due to skin colour/race - both the woke and racists fall into this trap albeit they attribute rather different reasons (existing beliefs) to the disparity (discrimination/racism or inferiority).
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Then what is it if it isn't racism or inferiority?
 
bloodiedathame said:
Then what is it if it isn't racism or inferiority?
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Depends on the issue* - multiple factors/confounders can affect disparities...

Can you not see the obvious fallacy in simply attributing a gap to your existing beliefs?

For example - this is what intelligent design creationists do with biology - fill in the gaps left when evolution is dismissed with a belief...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps

edit - *if you want some examples then here is an article that explains this and more pretty well with examples:

https://areomagazine.com/2020/06/16/three-common-fallacies-in-arguments-about-systemic-racism/
 
I walk down my town, I see homeless, destitute white people everywhere, very rarely see an Asian or Black people homeless.
Mainly due to 'Positive discrimination' which is now a thing, a gang of immigrants jumping off a dinghy have more rights to housing than indigenous people. Because of this, white people, especially if male, are at the bottom of the queue for everything.

I turn on the TV all I see is successful black people doing really well.
I turn on the radio and all I hear are multi millionaire rappers.

Got a lot of respect for Lil Wayne when they tried to turn him into a race hustler.

 
Rroff said:
I hate to defend this government in any way but the way people are jumping down Dominic Raab's throat over his largely objective comments about taking the knee is disgusting and not right at all.
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Taking the knee did not come from Game of Thrones (I’m fairly astonished he inferred that it did), nor does it in any way stand for ‘submitting’ as he inferred (based on his knowledge of Game of Thrones).

Taking the knee comes in the context of the movement comes from athletes refusing to salute the US flag by not standing as they usually would (akin to having a flag at half mast to signify solemn times).

Raab could not be more objectively wrong on the subject, so the criticism is fair tbh.
 
Nitefly said:
Taking the knee did not come from Game of Thrones (I’m fairly astonished he inferred that it did), nor does it in any way stand for ‘submitting’ as he inferred (based on his knowledge of Game of Thrones).

Taking the knee comes in the context of the movement comes from athletes refusing to salute the US flag by not standing as they usually would (akin to having a flag at half mast to signify solemn times).

Raab could not be more objectively wrong on the subject, so the criticism is fair tbh.
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There is more than one perspective though on taking the knee and while there is context there is a much wider story to it. Regardless he might be wrong on certain points but his intentions don't warrant the jumping on him that is going on which is no better than the prejudice this movement is supposedly fighting.
 
CosmicClown said:
I turn on the radio and all I hear are multi millionaire rappers
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Rap is commonly derogative to women, condones drugs and violence, and offends many people. I suspect there is some justification for allowing it whilst statues of historical slavers must be torn down and language must be changed to remove offensive words (unless they're in rap music).
 
Nitefly said:
Taking the knee did not come from Game of Thrones (I’m fairly astonished he inferred that it did), nor does it in any way stand for ‘submitting’ as he inferred (based on his knowledge of Game of Thrones).

Taking the knee comes in the context of the movement comes from athletes refusing to salute the US flag by not standing as they usually would (akin to having a flag at half mast to signify solemn times).

Raab could not be more objectively wrong on the subject, so the criticism is fair tbh.
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Yeah the current trend is the result of the NFL flag/national anthem protests by Kaepernick.

Bit of gaslighting/revisionism going on on twitter where people are posting black and white photos of MLK kneeling in order to better "shame" Raab for his comments though...

IIRC Kaepernick came up with the knee idea after discussions with veterans in order to find a method of protest which could be seen as still being respectful.

As he has often, Maajid Nawaz has a good take on this:
i29Qeq8.png


edit - aside from his misspelling of "Kaepernick", which made me then double check my own spelling above!
 
Rroff said:
There is more than one perspective though on taking the knee and while there is context there is a much wider story to it. Regardless he might be wrong on certain points but his intentions don't warrant the jumping on him that is going on which is no better than the prejudice this movement is supposedly fighting.
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He literally said, admitting that there may be a wider context of which he was unaware but stating that it seems to come from Game of Thrones (?!), that he thought of it as a symbol of subjugation and subordination rather than one of liberation and emancipation.

He is saved somewhat by claiming his own ignorance, I’ll give him that, and I’ll further grant him that he was specifically asked “would you take a knee?” which was a weird question, but otherwise that is just a really ****ing dumb thing to say. You can’t just completely ignore the entire point of the action and legitimately criticise it for meaning something else.

Anyone who had even attempted to look at the background of it would understand that it’s not a symbol of subjugation. His response is effectively as if it really was a symbol of submission as if it’s from Game of Thrones. So he just made himself look like an absolute idiot through ignorance.... albeit again he did claim he was ignorant when he made the comment and it was in response to a strange question. But overall, he scored poorly.
 
dowie said:
Yeah the current trend is the result of the NFL flag/national anthem protests by Kaepernick.

Bit of gaslighting/revisionism going on on twitter where people are posting black and white photos of MLK kneeling in order to better "shame" Raab for his comments though...

IIRC Kaepernick came up with the knee idea after discussions with veterans in order to find a method of protest which could be seen as still being respectful.

As he has often, Maajid Nawaz has a good take on this:
i29Qeq8.png


edit - aside from his misspelling of "Kaepernick", which made me then double check my own spelling above!
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A better attempt at what I was trying to say :s
 
There was a black twitter user (annoyingly can't find the video at the mo) who illustrated some of this perfectly - in order to demonstrate how silly it can get he filmed himself on the street approaching a stranger, a white woman and requesting she take a knee for BLM, she immediately did as he'd commanded like an obedient dog... :D
 
dowie said:
in order to demonstrate how silly it can get he filmed himself on the street approaching a stranger, a white woman and requesting she take a knee for BLM, she immediately did as he'd commanded like an obedient dog... :D
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This sounds like casting couch material, sign me up.
 
Nitefly said:
Taking the knee did not come from Game of Thrones (I’m fairly astonished he inferred that it did), nor does it in any way stand for ‘submitting’ as he inferred (based on his knowledge of Game of Thrones).

Taking the knee comes in the context of the movement comes from athletes refusing to salute the US flag by not standing as they usually would (akin to having a flag at half mast to signify solemn times).

Raab could not be more objectively wrong on the subject, so the criticism is fair tbh.
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Don't think he was wrong to bring up game of thrones it's certainly popularised elements of european history/mythology I would think even George R.R.Martin himself would agree even if indirectly linked.

In European history rulers and monarchs kneel only to god or god's messenger "The Pope" and in turn their "subjects" kneeled to them. Kneeling in the west is deeply ingrained in subjectation its all about letting others know they hold power and dominion over you.
 
Dem2k said:
Don't think he was wrong to bring up game of thrones it's certainly popularised elements of european history/mythology I would think even George R.R.Martin himself would agree even if indirectly linked.

In European history rulers and monarchs kneel only to god or god's messenger "The Pope" and in turn their "subjects" kneeled to them. Kneeling in the west is deeply ingrained in subjectation its all about letting others know they hold power and dominion over you.
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All things considered the only way the BLM matters ‘take a knee’ could be linked to monarchy related ‘take a knee’ is through ignorance, because it is so obviously not related it’s painful.

It doesn’t even make sense for it to mean ‘take a knee’ in the monarchy context - were the athletes in question willingly agreeing to submit to their purported oppressors? Of course they were not. It was an act of defiance, not an act of submission!!

I acknowledge the scope for confusion through ignorance, but it’s not even close to being the same.

Ignorance here meaning ‘a lack of knowledge’, rather than anything malicious.
 
bloodiedathame said:
And CVs of blacks and people of colour are put in the bin at many firms, because of 'unusual' names. Re-addressing this wrong is a good thing.
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CVs go in the bin for lots of reasons. Usually when people lack experience or it's written badly.

Where I work the people sorting CVs don't even get to see names or gender. The application is filled out online and those aren't asked.

Some employers may chuck CVs of black people or women in the bin, because they see the news and don't want to have to deal with that kind of hassle themselves.
 
Nasher said:
CVs go in the bin for lots of reasons. Usually when people lack experience or it's written badly.

Where I work the people sorting CVs don't even get to see names or gender. The application is filled out online and those aren't asked.
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That's so they don't chuck them in the bin for being black or female.
 
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