How are we affording all this welfare?

[MichaelAwkward]

UBI is an absurd idea - I mean, what would be the point of doing a min wage job if you could get the same for just chilling out at home?

There wouldn't be a minimum wage job to do in a future where UBI makes sense - all of those jobs will become automated/performed by robots. People would be free to pursue things that don't necassarily have a monetary value attached to them.

As for the national debt - it's been a lot higher relative to GDP than it is now and interest % a lot higher too. It's a non-issue over a long enough timeframe and doesn't even necassarily require tax increases.

 

[413x]

There wouldn't be a minimum wage job to do in a future where UBI makes sense - all of those jobs will become automated/performed by robots. People would be free to pursue things that don't necassarily have a monetary value attached to them.

As for the national debt - it's been a lot higher relative to GDP than it is now and interest % a lot higher too. It's a non-issue over a long enough timeframe and doesn't even necassarily require tax increases.

What seems guaranteed is that interest rates can't rise. It would cripple everything.

Seems crazy that its fine not to pay debt. Boggles the mind.

 

[MichaelAwkward]

Seems crazy that its fine not to pay debt. Boggles the mind.

Because it's not debt in the way that personal household debt is. That's been the problem of the last decade - politicians making voters think that the economy is anything like household finances.

 

[Greebo]

Surely thier isn't enough rich people to do this?

I mean personal taxes couldn't pay for it entirely? And we all know raising corporation tax in our world economic model pushes business out?

Can an Internet sales tax even make this workable?

Read the links I gave. That is why its crucial to get the levels set right but what it does do is redressed the balance of wealth.

I think on the studies down on the US version where everybody gets $1000 a month, it would cost $700bn but that would be paid for by the taxes on the wealthier people/companies so it would shift $700bn of wealth across.

 

[Greebo]

There wouldn't be a minimum wage job to do in a future where UBI makes sense - all of those jobs will become automated/performed by robots. People would be free to pursue things that don't necassarily have a monetary value attached to them.

As for the national debt - it's been a lot higher relative to GDP than it is now and interest % a lot higher too. It's a non-issue over a long enough timeframe and doesn't even necassarily require tax increases.

No absolutely true. Ultimately in the long run all the jobs might be done by robots but Universal credit will have to come in long before then while there will still be millions of humans employed in the care industry on minimum wage or slightly above so there would be a cross over period for a generation.

 

[413x]

Read the links I gave. That is why its crucial to get the levels set right but what it does do is redressed the balance of wealth.

I think on the studies down on the US version where everybody gets $1000 a month, it would cost $700bn but that would be paid for by the taxes on the wealthier people/companies so it would shift $700bn of wealth across.

Feels like it can't work with tax havens and way Corp tax works in the world.
And that's just 1000 USD?

The world needs new rules to stop businesses funnelling money out of the country they collect from soon.

 

[MichaelAwkward]

The world needs new rules to stop businesses funnelling money out of the country they collect from soon.

The world needs a global government to solve a lot of problems, or a least bigger regional ones (US/EU/etc) that co-operate on issues like this. We'll look back at this period of time as a species and feel ashamed of how inept and stupid we all were.

 

[413x]

No absolutely true. Ultimately in the long run all the jobs might be done by robots but Universal credit will have to come in long before then while there will still be millions of humans employed in the care industry on minimum wage or slightly above so there would be a cross over period for a generation.

Imagine the pressure swinging to not having kids. Because at this point the pyramid scheme doesn't apply. You don't need a bottom heavy demographic to prop up pensions.

At the moment there is pressure to increase population to pay for your pension. But in this scenario where jobs are literally done by robots breeding is purely causing environmental damage.

At this point things get very scifi as people literally have no purpose.

Wonder if my life time will see the effects of this play out

 

[413x]

The world needs a global government to solve a lot of problems. We'll look back at this period of time as a species and feel ashamed of how inept and stupid we all were.

Agreed. It's why I think the United States of Europe would be a good thing. But even now we are fracturing. Not much hope of cohesion

 

[MichaelAwkward]

At this point things get very scifi as people literally have no purpose.

I'd argue it's now that people literally have no purpose other than to eat, sleep, work, breed, and die. Very few people achieve anything of any real lasting value - most are just being used to make money for somebody else who's also achieving very little.

 

[413x]

I'd argue it's now that people literally have no purpose other than to eat, sleep, work, breed, and die. Very few people achieve anything of any real lasting value - most are just being used to make money for somebody else who's also achieving very little.

Oh I agree. But people need people to prop up them up later in life.

Without that...is there even any point?
I mean there's less and less point over time to have them, and birth rates are dropping. I guess it's just interesting when the pension argument also becomes moot.

 

[Greebo]

Feels like it can't work with tax havens and way Corp tax works in the world.
And that's just 1000 USD?

The world needs new rules to stop businesses funnelling money out of the country they collect from soon.

They do and the EU was making big inroads into this which is why some big business in the UK wanted the UK to leave and become a tax haven.

 

[mid_gen]

They do and the EU was making big inroads into this which is why some big business in the UK wanted the UK to leave and become a tax haven.

While we are witnessing the death throes of unbridled capitalism, it's not going to go quickly, and it's going to get very unpleasant for a lot of people in the coming decades, as the parasites at the top get increasingly desperate in their grasping and clutching at whatever is left of the pie.

The civil unrest we are seeing gradually building at the moment is just the tip of the iceberg imo.

 

[MichaelAwkward]

They do and the EU was making big inroads into this which is why some big business in the UK wanted the UK to leave and become a tax haven.

Quite interesting to see the recent change in tack by HMRC though - the case vs GE is spooking a lot of big businesses.

 

[Greebo]

Quite interesting to see the recent change in tack by HMRC though - the case vs GE is spooking a lot of big businesses.

There is a world of difference between a Govt decided to slacken company laws and become a tax haven and HMRC going after a company which has allegedly committed massive fraud.


GE had borrowed $3.8bn from an unnamed US bank that — over just four days — were moved between its operations in the US, Luxembourg, the UK and Australia, before being returned to the same bank. Tax relief was claimed in every country the money moved through.

They lied to HMRC when they got approval.

And big business should only be spooked if they have committed fraud against HMRC,

 

[MichaelAwkward]

There is a world of difference between a Govt decided to slacken company laws and become a tax haven and HMRC going after a company which has allegedly committed massive fraud.

HMRC was previously perfectly happy with what they're now calling a massive fraud though; it isn't like new information came to light. Numerous other companies have made exactly the same arrangements with their blessing. Some of the people involved in the GE deal are now high up at both HMRC and PwC so it's being interpreted more widely as a sign of things to come.

 

[Trusty]

While we are witnessing the death throes of unbridled capitalism, it's not going to go quickly, and it's going to get very unpleasant for a lot of people in the coming decades, as the parasites at the top get increasingly desperate in their grasping and clutching at whatever is left of the pie.

The civil unrest we are seeing gradually building at the moment is just the tip of the iceberg imo.

Capitalism isn't going anywhere. Where does government get money from to pay for roads, health, education etc etc?

 

[Greebo]

HMRC was previously perfectly happy with what they're now calling a massive fraud though; it isn't like new information came to light. Numerous other companies have made exactly the same arrangements with their blessing. Some of the people involved in the GE deal are now high up at both HMRC and PwC so it's being interpreted more widely as a sign of things to come.

Quite the contrary. Based on the edited board minutes and the oral evidence given by GE in 2005, the HMRC approved the tax relief. New evidence came to light in 2008 that GE had lied and deceived the HMRC and the money borrowed from a US bank and transferred to the UK wasnt then used to purchase an AUstralian company as GE made out. It just went round the world in 4 days and then back to original US bank that lent it.

If you are claiming lots of other companies have borrowed money for a few days and moved it round the world to claim tax relief from HMRC then they indeed should be worried as the only way they would have got approval for tax relief from HMRC would be if they had lied and defrauded HMRC in the first place.

If however other companies had done genuine loans and investments in foreign countries and got HMRC approval then they will have nothing to worry about. HMRC havent changed their mind or the rules on that.

 

[R.P.L]

Because it's not debt in the way that personal household debt is. That's been the problem of the last decade - politicians making voters think that the economy is anything like household finances.

Governments can't simply print their way out of unsustainable amounts of debt. It works to an extent but abusing it will have bad consequences.

Capitalism isn't going anywhere. Where does government get money from to pay for roads, health, education etc etc?

The magic money tree, obviously.

 

[bris]

A country's debt is all about it's taxes it receives as revenue and its resources available to repay it like gold reserves and oil. The country sells bonds to banks etc with a guaranteed interest rate payable over a set period of time to fund the economy but it has a ceiling, it can borrow it's way out of trouble to a certain extent but then like a pyramid scheme it will eventually all crash down. This is when they get desperate, raise interest rates to make us attractive again to investors and finally crash the economy. 1967 and Black Wednesday are examples.


This covid thing is different though as it affects the whole world so I think a lot of leeway will be allowed. When it's all over though one things for sure, tax and interest rate rises will hit us hard.